Alternative History Armoured Fighting Vehicles Part 3

[RamscoopRaider]

If you can work at very high pressures then smaller kinetic energy shells again point to a lighter tank or carrying more rounds. At the extreme (very extreme in materials terms) you are looking at replacing huge single shot guns with small ultra high velocity automatic ones. In old technology I am reminded of the 2 Pounder Pipsqueak or Italian HV60mm. In historical small arms terms it is replacing black powder large bore single shot breech loaders with small calibre smokeless powder semi automatics. From Martini Henry to L85 if you will. Just as with these rifles, the ultra fast velocity small tank rounds will make range estimation less critical, with a longer dangerous range, and moving targets an easier hit with the target moving less during the time of flight.

Ideally this means developing exotic materials capable of withstanding the pressures and erosion of firing at these extremes but, in the days of black powder muzzle loaded cannon, the economic answer to expensive erodible bronze was to use cast iron and simply make it more massive. Crude but it did the trick to make mass cannon production feasible.

In addition to the the point Not James Stockdale made about gas expansion limiting velocity increases, there is also the fact that the ideal speed for a penetrator is about 1800m/s with DU and 2000m/s with Tungsten, going faster than that generally worsens penetration characteristics as the penetrator starts behaving more like a liquid than a solid

There's a reason 130mm and 140mm guns are being so commonly speculated on right now, unless someone makes an enormous breakthrough in material science, you aren't actually increasing penetration by increasing velocity, so the only way to increase penetration is with a bigger penetrator, which means a bigger gun, and incidentally 130mm and 140mm also deal with some of the bore erosion problems by having more area for the propellant gasses to push off

 

[alspug]

I have read heaps of people postulating that the 130/140mm achieves nothing because the Max Velocity is not changing, you hit the nail dead on when talking about the mass being thrown increasing and that improving performance. The information from Rheinmetal has indicated equal effectiveness at double the range which indicates the impact energy is massive which in turn indicates the mass has gone up. Funny how many people forget mass is just as important as velocity when armour penetration is considered. If mass was irrelevant the average tank could sit on the beach having a dual with a Battleship and laugh off the 16 inch impacts lol

 

[Kalga]

he average tank could sit on the beach having a dual with a Battleship and laugh off the 16 inch impacts lol

That's just an average game of Red alert.

 

[RedSword12]

If you want to go bigger, why not the P1500 Monster? It was supposed to have been armed with the 800 millimetre Schwerer Gustav.

View attachment 753886

The Schwerer Gustav is too impractical for an AFV. It's not accurate, reloading is slow, and barrels have to be constantly replaced. That package just makes the whole trouble of putting it on a big tank chassis not worth it.

 

[Ramontxo]

Given the general way this thread is going, I am surprised no one has suggested yet combining the Ontos with the Davy Crocket and place them in a T 28 (minus the puny little gun)

It may even survive firing it (full six guns broadside of course)

 

[Bougnas]

We now know the missing links between FV 4211 and MBT-80:
FV4211 Mk 2 was designed in 1972 and offered a 1125hp version of CV12 Condor coupled with a TN12 gearbox with added torque converter (TN19), IFCS and the 110mm gun (EXP-14), but was rejected as the Horstmann suspension couldn't exploit the full power of the engine.

FV 4222 is sort of "early spec Shir 2 but for the British army". It differs in that it uses the aluminium endoskeleton to reduce weight , the protection requirements may be different (better sides but maybe worse front since the project ended before it could be modified), and it has the 110mm gun and a cupola with more advanced optics.

FMBT (here in A1 and A2 form) was more advanced in most ways, with the CV12 uprated to 1275bhp, more advanced optics and FCS (and better stabs), possibly a better 120mm than L11 (EXP-19 or related), and better hull armor layout (no weak lower plate, better upper plate angling and angled cheeks to improve the protected arc).

Although still inferior to some of the competing Western designs in terms of firepower (rifled instead of smoothbore+UK quirks), weight efficiency and powertrain, both FV4222 and FMBT were vastly superior to what would become Challenger 1 without having a high technical/dev risk and with a similar or better service entry.
Arguably the UK should have gone straight for one of those instead of waiting for MBT-80, last chance to have a good platform in time.

---

http://www.tfd.chalmers.se/~thgr/ga...2/AlliedSignal AGT 1500 - Archived 3-1997.htm

Interestingly enough, like other 80's tanks, the Abrams' engine could have been uprated in the 90s to restore the original mobility. 1675 to 1700hp was possible while also improving fuel economy.

 

[Hammerbolt]

I've often wondered on the potential of a Challenger 2 built from the start with a variant of the Leopard 2's 120/L44 gun. I understand the british loved HESH rounds, and apparently these don't work with smoothbore guns, but this really crippled the tank in terms of export potential, NATO comunality and ease of ammo upgrading (not to mention changing to the newer 120/55...

 

[Bougnas]

I've often wondered on the potential of a Challenger 2 built from the start with a variant of the Leopard 2's 120/L44 gun. I understand the british loved HESH rounds, and apparently these don't work with smoothbore guns, but this really crippled the tank in terms of export potential, NATO comunality and ease of ammo upgrading (not to mention changing to the newer 120/55...

Historically the choice was made long before that and was more likely to affect MBT-80 and Challenger 1 (if the latter can be modified quickly enough between 1980 and 1982), though if CR1 is forced to use L11A5 due to time constraints CR2 could still use Rh 120. It would definitely help the tank (and can still save the national ammunition industry as the L27 CHARM III round was proposed to be made one-piece if Leopard 2 or M1A2 were chosen instead of CR2), but it doesn't really fix its other deficiencies like poor hull armor, somewhat limited FCS and mobility (if EPP is not used like in Challenger 2E). It would definitely simplify CR2 LEP.

 

[GrahamB]

I've often wondered on the potential of a Challenger 2 built from the start with a variant of the Leopard 2's 120/L44 gun. I understand the british loved HESH rounds, and apparently these don't work with smoothbore guns, but this really crippled the tank in terms of export potential, NATO comunality and ease of ammo upgrading (not to mention changing to the newer 120/55...

It would certainly have been interesting if they'd made the Challenger with a common mounting design so you could choose either rifled or smoothbore guns for your export model.

Correct me if I'm wrong but I don't think the L44 can take 2-part ammunition so you'd also have to have two versions of the ammo storage depending on the gun. Or make bespoke smoothbore shells with the same bag charges.

 

[Claymore]

The Schwerer Gustav is too impractical for an AFV. It's not accurate, reloading is slow, and barrels have to be constantly replaced. That package just makes the whole trouble of putting it on a big tank chassis not worth it.

No arguments here! 🤣😂🤣

 

[gaz3234]

can i get the scaled blueprints of object 279, is 7, M36b2, m18 hellcat, pt 76 and bmd 1 please ?

 

[Claymore]

can i get the scaled blueprints of object 279, is 7, M36b2, m18 hellcat, pt 76 and bmd 1 please ?

Unfortunately, not from me until my PC is shipped across the Atlantic. Expecting it to arrive sometime mid Septimber… 🙁

 

[cortz#9]

Unfortunately, not from me until my PC is shipped across the Atlantic. Expecting it to arrive sometime mid Septimber… 🙁

Bummer.

 

[cortz#9]

can i get the scaled blueprints of object 279, is 7, M36b2, m18 hellcat, pt 76 and bmd 1 please ?

Here's are some AFV's that were scaled and posted by Claymore in the past for me.

BMD-1

PT-76

M36

IS-7

All pics are in the same scale and were originally posted by Claymore.
Sorry but I don't have an Object 279.

 

[gaz3234]

Here's are some AFV's that were scaled and posted by Claymore in the past for me.
View attachment 754547

BMD-1
View attachment 754548

PT-76

M36

IS-7

All pics are in the same scale and were originally posted by Claymore.
Sorry but I don't have an Object 279.

thank you very much

 

[cortz#9]

thank you very much

No problemo.
I have a lot of other AFV pics that @Claymore has posted here over the years most in the same scale so if you need any others, just post a request here and if I have em, I'll post em.

 

[gaz3234]

No problemo.
I have a lot of other AFV pics that @Claymore has posted here over the years most in the same scale so if you need any others, just post a request here and if I have em, I'll post em.

thanks for the information

 

[roderickgibsono]

https://www.instagram.com/p/Ce0Zq_MuHg6/

Apokas Paintball e Softair on Instagram: "Vieni a visitare il nostro museo di mezzi militari, puoi guidare carri armati e mezzi corazzati. In bio trovi il link per acquistare il pacchetto che preferisci #carroarmato #carriarmati #militare #mezzimil

436 likes, 4 comments - apokas_paintball on April 17, 2022: "Vieni a visitare il nostro museo di mezzi militari, puoi guidare carri armati e mezzi corazzati. In bio trovi il link per acquistare il p...".

www.instagram.com

Since I have an ecletic concept of romantic, I recently drove this beauty with an intimate Turkish friend.

Far as I know, this one of the only 8/9 (or maybe LESS) places where you can legally drive an APC and other IFV. One of them is in England but well, I need a visa and that would add to the cost.

I paid 241 euros for 2 hours for me and the friend, also shoot at targets with a rifle on another vehicle, so it would be 60 euros per hour per 1 person.

My friend drove more cautiosly than me, the staff member with us said I drove well despite I don't have a driving licence (you just needed to be above 18 to drive in the place "circuit").

Wish I could post my personal stuff, but said friend insisted we would share only with her and my closest friends and family members. Her friends asked jokingly if she had joined the PKK or Isis.

The APC should BE a Czechoslovakian amphibian APC from 1960s-1970s, I forgot the exact designation/name.

 

[Claymore]

https://www.instagram.com/p/Ce0Zq_MuHg6/

Apokas Paintball e Softair on Instagram: "Vieni a visitare il nostro museo di mezzi militari, puoi guidare carri armati e mezzi corazzati. In bio trovi il link per acquistare il pacchetto che preferisci #carroarmato #carriarmati #militare #mezzimil

436 likes, 4 comments - apokas_paintball on April 17, 2022: "Vieni a visitare il nostro museo di mezzi militari, puoi guidare carri armati e mezzi corazzati. In bio trovi il link per acquistare il p...".

www.instagram.com

Since I have an ecletic concept of romantic, I recently drove this beauty with an intimate Turkish friend.

Far as I know, this one of the only 8/9 (or maybe LESS) places where you can legally drive an APC and other IFV. One of them is in England but well, I need a visa and that would add to the cost.

I paid 241 euros for 2 hours for me and the friend, also shoot at targets with a rifle on another vehicle, so it would be 60 euros per hour per 1 person.

My friend drove more cautiosly than me, the staff member with us said I drove well despite I don't have a driving licence (you just needed to be above 18 to drive in the place "circuit").

Wish I could post my personal stuff, but said friend insisted we would share only with her and my closest friends and family members. Her friends asked jokingly if she had joined the PKK or Isis.

The APC should BE a Czechoslovakian amphibian APC from 1960s-1970s, I forgot the exact designation/name.

Nice… That will be an OT-64 SKOT, jointly developed by Czechoslovakia and Poland in the mid 60s. 👍

 

[Garrison]

So a question I am pondering for the future of my TL. I am wondering if the Pz IV was seen as more successful, which it has been in the TL having gotten the long 75mm sooner, might the Pz V Panther be more of a derivative of the Pz IV and what might that look like?