Alternative History Armoured Fighting Vehicles Part 3

[Claymore]

All points re trying to force a 120mm smoothbore or 105mm L7 with their resultant larger turrets onto a T-72 noted, digested and grudgingly accepted. 🤔😉

Back then to a basic production , 3-man crew, T-72. Having been back through the previous entries on the topic of the Cambodian Wildcat, I note @La Rouge Beret ’s desire for the Cambodians to standardise their MBTs on a single calibre/ammunition type. As they are already using the rifled 120mm L11A5 in their King Tiger (for all the rifled 120mm haters out there, please get used to it, that’s just the way it is in this TL), that would seem to be the way to go. As also previously mentioned, the L11’s ammunition is 2 part, like the Russian 125mm and so would, potentially, with a bit of tweaking, fit the T-72’s existing ammunition storage and auto loader.

I had previously drawn up just such a version of the Wildcat, but now propose something just a little different - some ceramic armour added to the T-72 turret to change its shape a little - but nothing too radical. Will draw something up in due course. 🙂

 

[La Rouge Beret]

All points re trying to force a 120mm smoothbore or 105mm L7 with its resultant larger turret onto a T-72 noted, digested and grudgingly accepted. 🤔😉

Back then to a basic production , 3-man crew, T-72. Having been back through the previous entries on the topic of the Cambodian Wildcat, I note @La Rouge Beret ’s desire for the Cambodians to standardise their MBTs on a single calibre/ammunition type. As they are already using the rifled 120mm L11A5 in their Ting Tiger (for all the rifled 120mm haters out there, please get used to it, that’s just t( way it is in this TL), that would seem to be the way to go. As also previously mentioned, 5eh L1a’s ammunition is 2 part, like the Russian 125mm and so would, potentially, with a bit of tweaking, fit the T-72’s existing ammunition storage and auto loader.

I had previously drawn up just such a version of the Wildcat, but now propose something just a little different - some ceramic armour added to the T-72 turret to change its shape a little - but nothing too radical. Will draw something up in due course. 🙂

Golly I didn't even realise that there were 120 mm haters out there and I'm looking forward to seeing what a slightly modified T - 72 turret looks like. Would there be any other changes to the internal layout or the electronic fit out that you could make? I wonder if the generally appalling build quality of Soviet T - 72s would need some rectification work to bring it up to Western standards.

 

[Jim Smitty]

Golly I didn't even realise that there were 120 mm haters out there and I'm looking forward to seeing what a slightly modified T - 72 turret looks like. Would there be any other changes to the internal layout or the electronic fit out that you could make? I wonder if the generally appalling build quality of Soviet T - 72s would need some rectification work to bring it up to Western standards.

Frankly I don't understand how someone could hate the 120 mm guns.

 

[Claymore]

Golly I didn't even realise that there were 120 mm haters out there and I'm looking forward to seeing what a slightly modified T - 72 turret looks like. Would there be any other changes to the internal layout or the electronic fit out that you could make? I wonder if the generally appalling build quality of Soviet T - 72s would need some rectification work to bring it up to Western standards.

Frankly I don't understand how someone could hate the 120 mm guns.

Beware, there are those out there for whom the rifled 120mm L11/L30 guns are the Devil’s cannons!! 👹 😱😂

I think a TOGS subsystem will be a necessity at the very least along with an improved fire-control computer - the addition of a BV (boiling vessel) is a given...

 

[La Rouge Beret]

Beware, there are those out there for whom the rifled 120mm L11/L30 guns are the Devil’s cannons!! 👹 😱😂

I think a TOGS subsystem will be a necessity at the very least along with an improved fire-control computer - the addition of a BV (boiling vessel) is a given...

The TOGS subsystem is a good choice and provides that commonality with the King Tiger.

Imagine going to war without a cuppa... 🤯, next the bucketheads will be without their famed jaffle lines.

 

[cortz#9]

T-72 w 120mm L-30 and interleaved wheels

 

[wietze]

- the addition of a BV (boiling vessel) is a given...

A BV is a splendid idea anyways.
maybe cars need one too

 

[wietze]

T-72 w 120mm L-30 and interleaved wheels
View attachment 653909

worst of all worlds? lol

 

[GuildedAgeNostalgia]

Interleaved wheels are hideous.

 

[Jim Smitty]

T-72 w 120mm L-30 and interleaved wheels
View attachment 653909

Did a King Tiger, T-72, and a Chieftain all have a night of drunken debauchery?

 

[Claymore]

Been thinking - a very dangerous thing for a Scotsman after a couple of whiskies...

What we want for the Cambodian Wildcat is a T-72 with an up-armoured turret carrying a L11A5 gun... Now the Chinese have a suitable ceramic armoured turret in the form of the Type 85 IIA which effectively was a new (125mm armed, autoloader equipped) turret built for the existing Type 85 tank. So perhaps the Germans sell the T-72s at a knock down price - effectively giving them away. Wanting the L11A5 gun and an improved turret, the Cambodians approach the Chinese (no lovers of the North Vietnamese) and procure the Type 85 IIA turrets fitted with the L11A5 and suitable fire control systems... Eh? eh? eh? 🤔

 

[La Rouge Beret]

Been thinking - a very dangerous thing for a Scotsman after a couple of whiskies...

What we want for the Cambodian Wildcat is a T-72 with an up-armoured turret carrying a L11A5 gun... Now the Chinese have a suitable ceramic armoured turret in the form of the Type 85 IIA which effectively was a new (125mm armed, autoloader equipped) turret built for the existing Type 85 tank. So perhaps the Germans sell the T-72s at a knock down price - effectively giving them away. Wanting the L11A5 gun and an improved turret, the Cambodians approach the Chinese (no lovers of the North Vietnamese) and procure the Type 85 IIA turrets fitted with the L11A5 and suitable fire control systems... Eh? eh? eh? 🤔

So I was thinking some more about this as an option and, would have replied earlier except that my workplace is taking most of my attention at the moment.

I think you are also referring to the angular western style Type 85 IIA turret? If so given the timeline there is a parallel from OTL, when the Royal Thai Navy ordered two Chinese frigates fitted with western electronics. Although they found the build quality to be appalling and spent a considerable sum to bring them up to western standards. An example were water tight doors that were unable to be properly closed and secured.

Another option could be an equivalent upgrade to the Romanian TR 85, where they installed western style turrets on their MBTs. Alternatively, could we look at a standard T - 72 buy, except the turret and electronics receive a comparative German upgrade to the Leopard II. So we still end up with a western take on the T - 72, could the Polish PT - 91 Twardy give us an idea as to what it looks like?

So the way I see that unfolding would be that the recently re-united Germany offers to sell the former East German T - 72s for cents in the dollar in exchange for an upgrade package being completed by a German firm. Which in reality would result in a German subsidiary or JV based in Cambodia with local work requirements and possible technology transfer clauses. Sounds plausible to me.

 

[Claymore]

So I was thinking some more about this as an option and, would have replied earlier except that my workplace is taking most of my attention at the moment.

I think you are also referring to the angular western style Type 85 IIA turret? If so given the timeline there is a parallel from OTL, when the Royal Thai Navy ordered two Chinese frigates fitted with western electronics. Although they found the build quality to be appalling and spent a considerable sum to bring them up to western standards. An example were water tight doors that were unable to be properly closed and secured.

Another option could be an equivalent upgrade to the Romanian TR 85, where they installed western style turrets on their MBTs. Alternatively, could we look at a standard T - 72 buy, except the turret and electronics receive a comparative German upgrade to the Leopard II. So we still end up with a western take on the T - 72, could the Polish PT - 91 Twardy give us an idea as to what it looks like?

So the way I see that unfolding would be that the recently re-united Germany offers to sell the former East German T - 72s for cents in the dollar in exchange for an upgrade package being completed by a German firm. Which in reality would result in a German subsidiary or JV based in Cambodia with local work requirements and possible technology transfer clauses. Sounds plausible to me.

Plausible certainly, but might look at a slightly more comprehensive upgrade than the Twardy. Are you thinking of the Cambodians keeping the 125mm gun or swapping it out for the 120mm L11A5 to compliment their King Tigers?

 

[La Rouge Beret]

Plausible certainly, but might look at a slightly more comprehensive upgrade than the Twardy. Are you thinking of the Cambodians keeping the 125mm gun or swapping it out for the 120mm L11A5 to compliment their King Tigers?

Hmm I'm in two minds, what are the advantages of either option?

 

[cortz#9]

Just a doodle.

 

[paulo]

Tiger II chassis with Leo 2 turret (austere / 1-4 variant)?

 

[cortz#9]

Tiger II chassis with Leo 2 turret (austere / 1-4 variant)?

No they're both in the same scale.

 

[Claymore]

Hmm I'm in two minds, what are the advantages of either option?

Personally, I am in favour of military standardisation... why?... because that’s what every military worth its salt strives to achieve for sound logistical reasons, efficiency and economics. Having already established a service lineage of 105mm L7 to 120mm L11A5, I would keep the 120mm rather than introduce a ’new’ 125mm calibre.

 

[Driftless]

View attachment 654839
Just a doodle.

"Say hello to mah little friend....."

 

[Not James Stockdale]

Personally, I am in favour of military standardisation... why?... because that’s what every military worth its salt strives to achieve for sound logistical reasons, efficiency and economics. Having already established a service lineage of 105mm L7 to 120mm L11A5, I would keep the 120mm rather than introduce a ’new’ 125mm calibre.

Ultimately, the British 120 mm rifled tank gun is a technological dead end. It has a number of intractable problems that create performance shortcomings. However, the Cambodians are unlikely to encounter the kinds of tanks that would require better guns to deal with until well after the East German T-72s are completely worn out.