Alternate warships of nations

The Dutch often preferred flak guns to torpedoes, they realized the threat of air power fairly early on. Their destroyers were also fitted with minelaying and minesweeping gear, as well as provision for an aircraft. They had alot of neat ideas, just not enough ships to make a difference.
Snorkel! Thankfully wasted by the germans...
 
The Dutch often preferred flak guns to torpedoes, they realized the threat of air power fairly early on. Their destroyers were also fitted with minelaying and minesweeping gear, as well as provision for an aircraft. They had alot of neat ideas, just not enough ships to make a difference.
In the first half of the interbellum the purpose of the Dutch surface units was to scout for the submarines, as they were the main striking force. That made it unnecessary to provide the light cruisers and destroyers with large torpedo installation. As they were going to operate alone AA was much more useful. In the second half the surface units (and especially the light cruisers) became the main striking force. This was done by discrediting the submarines and their torpedo's, so the latter were not politically viable.
 
Somewhat inspired by that heavy cruiser design, a somewhat less good heavy cruiser design;

Severny, USSR Heavy Cruiser laid down 1948

Displacement:
18,174 t light; 19,093 t standard; 21,006 t normal; 22,537 t full load

Dimensions: Length (overall / waterline) x beam x draught (normal/deep)
(711.94 ft / 711.94 ft) x 78.74 ft x (24.61 / 25.94 ft)
(217.00 m / 217.00 m) x 24.00 m x (7.50 / 7.91 m)

Armament:
12 - 8.66" / 220 mm 65.0 cal guns - 360.22lbs / 163.39kg shells, 150 per gun
Breech loading guns in turret on barbette mounts, 1948 Model
4 x Triple mounts on centreline, evenly spread
2 raised mounts
14 - 5.12" / 130 mm 55.0 cal guns - 72.36lbs / 32.82kg shells, 200 per gun
Dual purpose guns in deck and hoist mounts, 1948 Model
6 x Twin mounts on sides, evenly spread
1 x Twin mount on centreline, aft deck forward
1 raised mount
16 - 2.24" / 57.0 mm 60.0 cal guns - 6.19lbs / 2.81kg shells, 400 per gun
Anti-air guns in deck mounts, 1948 Model
8 x Twin mounts on sides, evenly spread
4 raised mounts
24 - 0.91" / 23.0 mm 70.0 cal guns - 0.42lbs / 0.19kg shells, 800 per gun
Anti-air guns in deck mounts, 1948 Model
6 x Quad mounts on sides, evenly spread
6 raised mounts
Weight of broadside 5,445 lbs / 2,470 kg
Main Torpedoes
8 - 21.0" / 533 mm, 20.00 ft / 6.10 m torpedoes - 1.403 t each, 11.223 t total
In 2 sets of deck mounted side rotating tubes

Armour:
- Belts: Width (max) Length (avg) Height (avg)
Main: 5.91" / 150 mm 492.13 ft / 150.00 m 10.43 ft / 3.18 m
Ends: 1.97" / 50 mm 219.82 ft / 67.00 m 10.43 ft / 3.18 m
Upper: 1.97" / 50 mm 492.13 ft / 150.00 m 8.01 ft / 2.44 m
Main Belt covers 106 % of normal length

- Torpedo Bulkhead - Additional damage containing bulkheads:
1.97" / 50 mm 492.13 ft / 150.00 m 21.06 ft / 6.42 m
Beam between torpedo bulkheads 68.90 ft / 21.00 m

- Gun armour: Face (max) Other gunhouse (avg) Barbette/hoist (max)
Main: 6.00" / 152 mm 4.00" / 102 mm 4.00" / 102 mm
2nd: 3.00" / 76 mm 2.00" / 51 mm 2.00" / 51 mm
3rd: 0.98" / 25 mm 0.98" / 25 mm -
4th: 0.47" / 12 mm - -

- Armoured deck - multiple decks:
For and Aft decks: 0.98" / 25 mm
Forecastle: 1.97" / 50 mm Quarter deck: 0.98" / 25 mm

- Conning towers: Forward 5.91" / 150 mm, Aft 5.91" / 150 mm

Machinery:
Oil fired boilers, steam turbines,
Geared drive, 4 shafts, 157,926 shp / 117,813 Kw = 35.00 kts
Range 9,000nm at 16.00 kts
Bunker at max displacement = 3,444 tons

Complement:
872 - 1,134

Cost:
£14.072 million / $56.289 million

Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
Armament: 1,728 tons, 8.2 %
- Guns: 1,705 tons, 8.1 %
- Weapons: 22 tons, 0.1 %
Armour: 4,358 tons, 20.7 %
- Belts: 1,737 tons, 8.3 %
- Torpedo bulkhead: 755 tons, 3.6 %
- Armament: 872 tons, 4.2 %
- Armour Deck: 801 tons, 3.8 %
- Conning Towers: 194 tons, 0.9 %
Machinery: 3,859 tons, 18.4 %
Hull, fittings & equipment: 8,129 tons, 38.7 %
Fuel, ammunition & stores: 2,832 tons, 13.5 %
Miscellaneous weights: 100 tons, 0.5 %
- On freeboard deck: 100 tons

Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
29,114 lbs / 13,206 Kg = 89.6 x 8.7 " / 220 mm shells or 3.5 torpedoes
Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1.10
Metacentric height 4.2 ft / 1.3 m
Roll period: 16.2 seconds
Steadiness - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 50 %
- Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0.67
Seaboat quality (Average = 1.00): 1.07

Hull form characteristics:
Hull has a flush deck,
an extended bulbous bow and large transom stern
Block coefficient (normal/deep): 0.533 / 0.542
Length to Beam Ratio: 9.04 : 1
'Natural speed' for length: 30.58 kts
Power going to wave formation at top speed: 59 %
Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 47
Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 0.00 degrees
Stern overhang: 0.00 ft / 0.00 m
Freeboard (% = length of deck as a percentage of waterline length):
Fore end, Aft end
- Forecastle: 20.00 %, 36.09 ft / 11.00 m, 29.53 ft / 9.00 m
- Forward deck: 30.00 %, 29.53 ft / 9.00 m, 24.61 ft / 7.50 m
- Aft deck: 35.00 %, 24.61 ft / 7.50 m, 24.61 ft / 7.50 m
- Quarter deck: 15.00 %, 24.61 ft / 7.50 m, 24.61 ft / 7.50 m
- Average freeboard: 26.85 ft / 8.19 m

Ship space, strength and comments:
Space - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 103.7 %
- Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 222.8 %
Waterplane Area: 40,073 Square feet or 3,723 Square metres
Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 111 %
Structure weight / hull surface area: 145 lbs/sq ft or 708 Kg/sq metre
Hull strength (Relative):
- Cross-sectional: 0.95
- Longitudinal: 1.60
- Overall: 1.00
Adequate machinery, storage, compartmentation space
Excellent accommodation and workspace room

Thought process is basically a much larger Sverdlov class that can outmatch the American/British 8 inch armed heavy cruisers that are still around. Probably still not the best idea, and one of these would be a lot more expensive than a Sverdlov. (Though if the Soviets build a half dozen of so of these it might be enough to keep the Alaskas in service through the 50s.)
Armament is assumed to be this; http://www.navweaps.com/Weapons/WNRussian_86-65_sm-40.php
 
The originator writes of a 200 mm armored belt. Initially I copied this but compared to other heavy crusers, although smaller in size, it seems a bit too much.
 
I've received permission for this post from @CalBear in advance.

I am pleased to say that the fourth version of the Naval Game here at AH is starting I would welcome any who would like to take part in it to join.
I Recommend you change your link to the www version instead, because it confuses the browsers as the https only applies to the www and it thinks you are trying to put a fake link on it.
Like this, for example:
 

Driftless

Donor
Having those ships at the battle of the Java Sea probably would have made a big difference for the ABDA.

The Japanese knowing the Dutch have more capable ships in theater probably changes the IJN's OOB for that part of the larger campaign. That knock-on effect for the Japanese sets other impacts in motion.
 
1705503706208.png

Credits original Alvama,

Despite that fact the 1932 fleetplan of secretary Deckers mentioned the replacement of the Java-class cruisers by two modern cruisers, intent to be commisioned in 1941-1942 the Cabinet Colijn III made provisions in their emergency naval fund for the radical modernisation of the two Java class cruisers. As an interrim solution until the replacement cruisers were commsioned.
For the Sumatra this refit included not only the armament but also her turbines and other propulsion related machinery.
Main weapons were refurbised and placed in twin turrets, based on the De Ruyter turrets.
The Vickers 40 mm AA machine guns were replaced by double 40 mm MG Bofors AA positions. The 150 mm gun emplacements were removed and their positions of the fore, aft on port and starboard side were used to place double 40 mm Bofors machineguns.
The A turret was close to the bow, which would make this turret wet when there was even a moderate sea swell in the North Sea, how ever in the waters of the Netherlands East Indies this was mostly not a problem.

4 x 2 - 150 mm Mk 6 /50 Bofors
10x2 - 40 mmL60 Mg Bofors AA
8 x 20 mm AA Mg (Hispano Suiza and manufactured under licence by Enkes Machine Fabriek, Voorschoten The Hague Netherlands)

based on the follwing drawing, altered the location of the 40 mm AA guns

I could not translate the Russsian, and looking at the figure of the airplanes this should look as late twenties early thirties.:
1705504622692.jpeg


Below an other version with double 40 mm Bofors MG on the locations of the former 15 cm mainguns and correct AA fire control.
1705677634701.png

credits original : Alexander van Maanen
 
Last edited:
View attachment 882166
Despite that fact the 1932 fleetplan of secretary Deckers mentioned the replacement of the Java-class cruisers by two modern cruisers, intent to be commisioned in 1941-1942 the Cabinet Colijn III made provisions in their emergency naval fund for the radical modernisation of the two Java class cruisers. As an interrim solution until the replacement cruisers were commsioned.
For the Sumatra this refit included not only the armament but also her turbines and other propulsion related machinery.
Main weapons were refurbised and placed in twin turrets, based on the De Ruyter turrets.
The Vickers 40 mm AA machine guns were replaced by double 40 mm MG Bofors AA positions. The 150 mm gun emplacements were removed and their positions of the fore, aft on port and starboard side were used to place double 40 mm Bofors machineguns.
The A turret was close to the bow, which would make this turret wet when there was even a moderate sea swell in the North Sea, how ever in the waters of the Netherlands East Indies this was mostly not a problem.

4 x 2 - 150 mm Mk 6 /50 Bofors
10 x 2 - 40 mmL60 Mg Bofors AA
8 x - .50 Mg Browning

based on the follwing drawing, altered the location of the 40 mm AA guns

I could not translate the Russsian, and looking at the figure of the airplanes this should look as late twenties early thirties.:
View attachment 882168
I wonder how easy it would have been to extend the bows on a Java class to improve seakeeping in this proposed refit? Extend it by a few meters and flare it out so it deflects as much water from the main deck to keep the turrets as dry as possible, shouldnt effect the ships handling or add much weight forward if done right, and may be necessary to add buoyancy to counter the new weight of the turrets forward.
 
I wonder how easy it would have been to extend the bows on a Java class to improve seakeeping in this proposed refit? Extend it by a few meters and flare it out so it deflects as much water from the main deck to keep the turrets as dry as possible, shouldnt effect the ships handling or add much weight forward if done right, and may be necessary to add buoyancy to counter the new weight of the turrets forward.
As I look on the photos the bow was very straigh, not the curved clipper bow of the late thirties. If lengthed than there would probably a clipper bow installed. On the otherhand this would make the refittime longer and more expensive, while it was a intermediate solution on a thight budget.
A breaker on the deck in front of the tower could do the trick well enough for a fraction of the cost and time, I think.
 
Acadia class Multi-Role Command Cruiser

Operators

- Royal Canadian Navy (2018-present) [5]
- Royal Navy (2018-present) [5]
- Royal Australian Navy (2019-present) [2]
- Indian Navy (2021-present) [4]
- South African Navy (2022-present) [1]
Number Built
17 (5 Royal Canadian Navy, 5 Royal Navy, 4 Indian Navy, 2 Royal Australian Navy, 1 South African Navy)
Builders
- Newfoundland Shipyards, Bonavista, Newfoundland and Labrador, Canada (1x Royal Canadian Navy)
- Canadian Shipbuilding Corporation New Brunswick Shipyards, Shediac, New Brunswick, Canada (1x Royal Canadian Navy, 1x Indian Navy)
- Canadian Shipbuilding Corporation Cape Breton Shipyards, Edwardsville, Nova Scotia, Canada (1x Royal Canadian Navy, 1x South African Navy)
- Versatile Pacific Shipyards, Vancouver, British Columbia, Canada (2x Royal Canadian Navy)
- Harland and Wolff Shipbuilders, Belfast, Northern Ireland, United Kingdom (2x Royal Navy)
- Cammell Laird, Birkenhead, Merseyside, United Kingdom (1x Royal Navy)
- Swan Hunter, Wallsend, Tyne and Wear, United Kingdom (2x Royal Navy)
- Australian Shipbuilding Corporation Eastern Yard, Williamstown, Victoria, Australia (2x Royal Australian Navy)
- Mumbai Naval Dockyards, Mumbai, Maharashtra, India (1x Indian Navy)
- Cochin Shipyards, Kochi, Kerala, India (2x Indian Navy)

Displacement
24,670 tons (full load)
Length
829 ft 8 in (252.88 m)
Beam
92 ft 2 in (28.09 m)
Draft
28 ft 7 in (8.72 m)
Complement
886 (90 officers, 112 senior ratings, 684 men)
Propulsion
- 2 AECL HTNR-01 high-temperature gas-cooled prismatic-block-design nuclear reactors
- 4 L&T Nuclear NES-11 nuclear heat exchangers
- 4 Vektris Engineering MS7A geared steam turbines
- 2 General Motors EMD 24-265J2 auxillary diesel power generators
- 4 Western Electric Model 35NS induction electric motors
- 4 Rolls-Royce Kamewa M4550 waterjets
- Research in Motion ISPP-4A integrated power and propulsion system
Power Output
152.32 MW (204,170 shp) maximum power output, maximum available for propulsion 160,000 shp
Top Speed
35.2 knots (40.5 mph, 65.2 km/h)
Range
Theoretically unlimited, original nuclear fuel core lasts 30 months
Endurance
75 days

Armament
- 2 Mk.184AC Poseidon 16-cell vertical launch systems (32 RGM-186A Algoolik anti-ship missiles)
- 2 Sylver 2A80C Nujalik 64-cell vertical launch systems (128 missiles)
- 1 Sylver 2A70C Tornat 64-cell vertical launch system (64 missiles)
- 4 Sea Ceptor V2A 16-cell vertical launch systems (64 CAMM anti-aircraft missiles)
- 1 VL-ASM2 Makara 16-cell vertical launch system (16 RUM-188A Varuna anti-submarine missiles)
- 4 Mk.64F5 155mm/62-caliber naval guns (two two-gun mounts, 650 rounds per gun)
- 8 Mk.95F2 76mm/62-caliber naval guns (four two-gun mounts, 2200 rounds per gun)
- 8 M2 Browning 12.7mm machine guns (4 twin mounts, 2000 rounds per gun)
- 2 Mark 32 SVTT 12.75" triple torpedo tube sets

Radars and Sensor Systems
- DRDO CANTIS Mark 21AV automatic naval tactical data system, containing:
-- Pacific Alliance PS32 liquid-cooled supercomputer
- Commonwealth Air Defense Systems SV-2A Ataksak Anti-Air Missile System, consisting of:
-- 1 Thales Nederland/Research in Motion APAR-3A 3D active phased array radar
-- 1 Thales Nederland/Research in Motion S1850M long-range air-search radar
-- 1 Raytheon AN/SPS-67(V)11 medium-range surface-search radar
-- 2 Thales Nederland/Vektor Electrotechnic Sirius IRST infrared search and track systems
-- 2 Dalsa Technologies Northlight 2A1 electro-optical surveillance and tracking systems
-- 5 Commodore Defense ADV04 continuous-wave fire control radars
-- 2 Raytheon/Vektor Electrotechnic SPQ-9B gunfire control radars
- 2 Rheinmetall Pathfinder Mark II navigation radars
- 1 DRDO CANTIS Mark 22UW anti-submarine warfare system (Type 2084A variable-depth hull sonar, 1 C1633A4 towed sonar array, 1 C1634A1 area sonar system)
- 1 Ultra Electronics S2170 SSTD torpedo defense system
- 1 Raytheon/Vektor Electrotechnic AN/SLQ-32(V)8 electronic warfare system

Aircraft Carried
3 Canadair VS-145C Poseidon anti-submarine tiltwings
12 Dragonflyer X6A maritime amphibious UAV

Boats Carried
4 SB90N Fast Combat Boats
 
Newfoundland Shipyards, Bonavista, Newfoundland and Labrador, Canada (1x Royal Canadian Navy)
- Canadian Shipbuilding Corporation New Brunswick Shipyards, Shediac, New Brunswick, Canada (1x Royal Canadian Navy, 1x Indian Navy)
- Canadian Shipbuilding Corporation Cape Breton Shipyards, Edwardsville, Nova Scotia, Canada (1x Royal Canadian Navy, 1x South African Navy)
Much as I love the idea I see two problems.

1. Getting the Canadian government to ever fund a Defence program of this size. Particularly funding one completely and early enough that it meets other nations defence need before they have done so themselves, thus allowing export orders.

2. How in blazes did Edwardsville, Shediac, and Bonavista end up with major shipbuilding contracts when both the capacity and , more importantly, the votes exist in HRM, St. John and St. John’s?
 
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