12", 13.5" and 15" guns against the protection of retired Ironclads and early (1880's to mid 1890's)Pre-Dreadnoughts is hardly a fair test of shell quality.
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They did. Firing trials that were undertaken against Belleisle by Majestic in 1900 showed that high capacity Lyddite filled shells could do a lot of damage but could be kept out by relatively thin armour. This led to the introduction of Lyddite large caliber HE shells and the use of thin armour all over the ship. Landrail was sunk in 1906 in trials of fire control involving multiple vessels firing at once, then using inert shells. Hero was used for firing trials in 1907 and 1908 testing the same issue but using live shells. The damage caused by Lyddite HE shells was again impressive. In 1909 and 1910 Edinburgh was used to test the new 4 crh shells, the effect of different armour thickness on penetration and damage, the effect of heavy HE of funnels and boilers, and the requirements of deck protection. Empress of India was sunk in 1913, though this was more for the sake of giving experience firing at a live ship rather than a target than to test ammunition.
In addition, trials of anti torpedo boat armament against torpedo boats were carried out in 1889, 1894, 1902, 1906, and 1909-1910. Tests against replica turret roofs were carried out in 1907 and 1913. Torpedo protection was tested in live ships in 1903, 1906, and 1914.
New shell types were tested on land using reduced powder charges to simulate greater ranges. New AP shells were tested in 1903 (Rendable AP), 1906 (APC) and 1907 (CPC). Penetration testing at various angles of impact was also regularly carried out using Salt filled shells. Additionally, in 1908 TNT filling was tested but a suitable fuse could not be procured and it was not put in to general use at the time.
The RN was a very technical and scientific service in the late 1800’s and early 1900’s. They did more scientific and technical analysis than any other service on earth at the time. Their results were certainly not always right and they certainly did not find or fix all of the issues that they had. But considering the reams of testing and computer simulations that can often go into what turns out to be an incorrect response now, I don’t think it is fair to fault them for not getting everything right.
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Driftless
Donor
The US Navy used the Puerto Rican island of Cuelebra as a target range for several decades, much to the intense upset of the locals. (There were other target ranges in the more wide-open spaces of the US West too, of course)
(From Wikipedia)
A Navy does need some location to use for target practice(preferably close to a base), but where for the UK? Even the outer island groups like the Orkneys or Shetland Island were, and are populated.
Pretty sure Scapa was decent for gun practice (but Rosyth wasn't good for that)
Oh, or do you mean targets being on land?
When I am honest about it, few navies need much more than some coastal patrol/gunboats if the face any other Great Power navy. Even light cruisers are an expensive luxury unless your only enemy has them or less. But yes, my question was also a way to think of the smaller navies looking to counter the light cruiser/destroyer foe at something less than the BC level. A surplus AC might be a way to move upstream, Greece certainly did so pending its move to dreadnoughts, but even the newest ones were nearly expired even if still usable steaming around the backwaters. I hoped to see what others thought of the AC giving more genes to the evolution of the CA than the Hawkins "big" CL. Thus giving us armor, bigger guns and cruiser speed, likely on not less than 10,000 tons, more likely 12 to 16,000. That looks more plausible in the no WNT scenario as the ACs are burned out of life leading the overseas cruiser squadrons in lieu of sparing BCs, so in effect a "cruiser leader". It also tends to work in a no Great War line of thought for me too.
To add more details, I am working from the existing--and much praised--German 210mm guns, I think the British 9.2 is not as loved, so I could see them go for a new 203mm, higher velocity, lighter shell, all "lessons" the Admiralty told itself post-Jutland. Very back of napkin I think triple 203 versus twin 210, the British might retain a heavier secondary as Germany goes for lighter rapid fire (if reverse that might spur a true DP gun in the RN sooner), both long ranged for foreign service, German prefer more protection so they can brawl on the fleet screen, RN prefers range and accommodation suited to patrol work since they in theory have more BCs to quash German cruisers. So to the Treasury's horror we see the jump to super dreadnoughts, fast battleships (once BCs), big cruisers and big light cruisers, some 15,000 and 8 to 10,000 ton each respectively as we swiftly spend ourselves crazy in the 20s and 30s.
You mean like this. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/SMS_Blücher A ship like that with oil fired boilers and steam turbines would make a pretty good flagship for a small navy in the 1920's.
I don't know.... It's an American ship so wouldn't the turrets be "Super-DUPER-Firing" turrets? Again, "Americans" after all
I'm going to point out that they will more likely (as I think you suggested in the actual thread) use 'box' launchers and rocket salvos since (as per all militaries) you tend to aim to fight what YOU have not just what you know the enemy has. Given the range of American torpedoes they are going to assume they won't have that 'singular' advantage for very long so will build defenses capable of stopping their own torpedo boats. And horsing around a manually powered electro-Gatling gun isn't going to be a walk in the park of any size.
Possibly longer given American 'rocket' research is going to lead to earlier development of the "gas generator" power plant rather than stored air or electric.
Again you build to defend against the weapons you know about including ones you yourself have so such development is I think a given
Randy
Essentially, given a speed of 30 knots as I think that was the next speed for light cruisers before we must move to 32-36 to both keep up with destroyers and outrun other cruisers. The thinking behind the battlecruiser for Germany was the role of fleet scout who could sweep opposing cruisers or break through to take her look as well as fight on the line, a thing I believe Japan also thought but for the RN the BC was really about hunting the surface raiders, overmatching the many armored cruisers and leading those overseas cruiser squadrons, thus why I believe German BCs are better protected and do better in the force on force fight (Jutland) while the British BCs are wrong tool on the wrong job. So for the RN they should be sending BCs overseas and scrapping the ACs as swift as the torch lights. A Germany is using its BCs as a fast van so moving towards the fast BB merger of roles, yet still needs a scout and brawler that could go raiding as well as wave the flag far afield, so a carry on to the AC of old. Still not going to beat a BC or even outrun it, but better than just a CL or two. And it really forces the RN to keep building the BC, diverting resources from their battle line.
As you say, I think this "heavy" cruiser fits in for lesser navies that want to at least punch upward, forcing any opponent to be a BC navy if they want to overmatch, or force a Great Power to bring the real navy and up the ante. WNT stuffed everything into the 10k ton hull, failing that, I see a lot of attraction for something betwixt and between the BC and the CL.
So here is a totally ASB idea.
In 1938/39 as the treaty system collapses the Dutch begin looking into buying new capital ships to defend the east indies. They eventually settle on buying a derivative of the German Scharnhorst class battleships, but these ships will not be delivered for some time. Knowing that a war is likely they look into what they can do do speed the process along.
Surprisingly the Germans, with direction from Hitler who is desperate for money for the Wehrmacht, agree to sell the two twins to the Dutch for a price the government is willing to fork out, not seriously effecting the budget in other areas. Plans for a further pair, or possible trio of further ships are made but nothing is laid down by war. The two ships are delivered alongside a supply of spare ammunition, engine parts and some other bits from Germany just before the war.
Only saying this once, this isnt likely at all so not interested in hearing that. Not the most insane thing the little Austrian private ever did though.
So the question is what do the Dutch do with a pair of battlecruisers when the Netherlands falls? More importantly what do the British do with a pair of ok fast battleships at the start of the war?
In 1938/39 as the treaty system collapses the Dutch begin looking into buying new capital ships to defend the east indies. They eventually settle on buying a derivative of the German Scharnhorst class battleships, but these ships will not be delivered for some time. Knowing that a war is likely they look into what they can do do speed the process along.
Surprisingly the Germans, with direction from Hitler who is desperate for money for the Wehrmacht, agree to sell the two twins to the Dutch for a price the government is willing to fork out, not seriously effecting the budget in other areas. Plans for a further pair, or possible trio of further ships are made but nothing is laid down by war. The two ships are delivered alongside a supply of spare ammunition, engine parts and some other bits from Germany just before the war.
Only saying this once, this isnt likely at all so not interested in hearing that. Not the most insane thing the little Austrian private ever did though.
So the question is what do the Dutch do with a pair of battlecruisers when the Netherlands falls? More importantly what do the British do with a pair of ok fast battleships at the start of the war?
If Germans are lucky/Brits unlucky they capture them and put them back in KM service.
Middle ground is that they are sunk (depending on how salvageable they are it is a different degree of positive for the Germans).
Or they can be evacuated to UK of course. I am not sure if they can be used. Oh Brits would like more fast capital ships, would be great for hunting Panzerschiffe or Hippers or putting against IJN cruisers (potentially even Kongous). But that would require Britain starting production of 11" shells. (They probably would replace the secondary turrets for an uniform DP battery rather than a split one).
Driftless
Donor
Sticking tongue firmly in cheek.... If they can't be used in the DEI, or manage to survive the ABDA chaos, then sell them to the US. The US then cancels the Alaska's. What does the US do with them? Pffft..... What did they do with the Alaska's?
Sticking tongue firmly in cheek.... If they can't be used in the DEI, or manage to survive the ABDA chaos, then sell them to the US. The US then cancels the Alaska's. What does the US do with them? Pffft..... What did they do with the Alaska's?
I mean, Alaskas were late. If they get the Twins early enough they could actually use them (I wouldn't give them much lifetime after the war tho).
I would assume the Dutch would get some ammo supplied, likely whatever the Germans had lying around at the time of the sale. If they get to the UK with some of that stockpile it's likely they see some service with the RN before their engines start having issues and they need work.
Depending on how much time the Dutch had to get familiar with the ships engines and how many manuals they have this may be the end of the ships as German power plants were nightmares of poor planning and dangerous design.
Adding though they could get the ships running after a few months of work with the RN they likely badly need work done and go into dock for a refit with more British standard equipment. Probably don't emerge in time for the NEI campaign but would be in service again in time for shenanigans in probably 43 or so.
Driftless
Donor
Sticking tongue firmly in cheek.... If they can't be used in the DEI, or manage to survive the ABDA chaos, then sell them to the US. The US then cancels the Alaska's. What does the US do with them? Pffft..... What did they do with the Alaska's?
Oh, I know its a reach, but from early 1942 to the end of 1943, a couple of quick running capital ships with range would have been welcomed, regardless of origin or complications
Early days, some of the AA either gets swapped out for US ordnance. Later, if they survive the Solomons/Santa Cruz/etc, then the other secondaries get swapped out, plus some other tweaks.
Maybe the US uses them as carrier escorts and they get sunk instead of a flattop in one battle or another. Going down with guns firing at the enemy the USN is so impressed that postwar they gift the Alaska's to the Netherlands in gratitude for their lost battlecruisers service.
The Dutch use the Alaska class ships for the rest of the century, building a small surface action group, the only one one the European side of NATO after the RN retires it's last BBs, to menace Soviet surface ships and keeps them relevant with continual updates until they are retired in the early 1990s.
The ships are both turned into museums, one in Den Helder and the other in Amsterdam and today serve as the only preserved battleships in Europe. The ships having a generally positive and well respected service history which only the bravest members of the Ursus species would dare attack.
Did they not anyway have the much better 12" BCs that they could keep first, i.e. the 4 (if OTL or 6 if no Jutland...) I class?
Since we are talking navy weapons, just fire out to sea or use the many costal islands off the UK? They did have testing ranges to test new guns after making them, and you can fire reduced charges horizontally to simulate long range hits?