Roughly, from 2003/03 to 2008/9, the Premier League was dominated by Manchester United, Arsenal, Liverpool and Chelsea. Using a PoD at any point before/after the formation of the PL, what is the possibility of an alternate 'Top Four' and what teams would this be?
Alternate 'Top Four' in the Premier League?
- Thread starter Romantic Nihilist
- Start date
Taking a POD where Fulham FC Moved to Standford Bridge on that bleaky day..
1.Fulham FC
2.Watford
3.Manchester United
4.Arsenal/Everton
1.Fulham FC
2.Watford
3.Manchester United
4.Arsenal/Everton
Billionaires buy different teams. It can be anyone you want.
London teams in particular have a high chance as thats where the rich like to spend their time.
Leyton Orient anyone?
Surely that would butterfly away the premier league.
London teams in particular have a high chance as thats where the rich like to spend their time.
Leyton Orient anyone?
In the 1900s?
Surely that would butterfly away the premier league.
I always wondered about Newcastle if Keegan remained or Blackburn if they could have capitalised on finishing as PL Champions.
Because..Watford ruled the old days,before Liverpool and everyone we know now appears?
(Basically:If Fulham moved to Standford,that will prevent the formation of Chelsea.And bigger and better stadium means..more money.)
Billionaires buy different teams. It can be anyone you want.
London teams in particular have a high chance as thats where the rich like to spend their time.
Leyton Orient anyone?
In the 1900s?
Surely that would butterfly away the premier league.
Why?
It was 100 years ago. A lot has happened since then. Even looking at direct effects with a reshuffle of teams in London it is likely that British football will develop very differently.
Not to mention the less obvious butterflies that can come into play in a century- every week all those Chelsea fans not going to football matches they would otherwise have gone to....lots of different meetings there.
Abramavich was apparently considering buying Spurs, but was able to get his hands on Chelsea quicker - apparently the latter were thirty minutes from financial meltdown when Bates concluded the deal with him. So it's easy to remove Chelsea from the list.
Blackburn had, for a while, the income of a big city club, courtesy of Jack Walker's largesse. However, once he had his trophy in 1995 JW wouldn't invest much more, and had some rather"old fashioned" attitudes - he refused to authorise the signing of some player by the name of Zidane from Bordeaux on the basis that Rovers didn't need "them foreigners".
Leeds and Newcastle had unsustainable financial models: Ridsdale's Elland Road regime was based on reaching the Champions League semi-finals every year, and at St James Park the Hall and Shepherd system seems to have consisted of increasing debts, and taking a great deal of money out of the club - Ashley didn't perform due diligence, and got lumbered with paying off c£170m of debt.
Randy Lerner has spent a lot at Aston Villa in an attempt to replicate the success of the Cleveland Browns: mostly pissed away on bad signings and enormous wages.
Spurs instead of Chelsea is the best bet, with the latter doing a Portsmouth without the Russian money.
Blackburn had, for a while, the income of a big city club, courtesy of Jack Walker's largesse. However, once he had his trophy in 1995 JW wouldn't invest much more, and had some rather"old fashioned" attitudes - he refused to authorise the signing of some player by the name of Zidane from Bordeaux on the basis that Rovers didn't need "them foreigners".
Leeds and Newcastle had unsustainable financial models: Ridsdale's Elland Road regime was based on reaching the Champions League semi-finals every year, and at St James Park the Hall and Shepherd system seems to have consisted of increasing debts, and taking a great deal of money out of the club - Ashley didn't perform due diligence, and got lumbered with paying off c£170m of debt.
Randy Lerner has spent a lot at Aston Villa in an attempt to replicate the success of the Cleveland Browns: mostly pissed away on bad signings and enormous wages.
Spurs instead of Chelsea is the best bet, with the latter doing a Portsmouth without the Russian money.
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Devvy
Donor
You need to have clubs that can attract the legions of fans needed to financially sustain a club long term.
Everton, Newcastle, Spurs and West Ham
...are the 4 teams I would go for. I would go for. All are long term stable clubs, have a top "name" (ie. they have a long and established fan club), are Premier League stalwarts (bar the odd hiccup for a season for NUFC and WHU) and are in cities where they can attract a large amount of fans.
Everton, Newcastle, Spurs and West Ham
...are the 4 teams I would go for. I would go for. All are long term stable clubs, have a top "name" (ie. they have a long and established fan club), are Premier League stalwarts (bar the odd hiccup for a season for NUFC and WHU) and are in cities where they can attract a large amount of fans.
Dunno about in the 2000s, but from the start of the PL it's not impossible for a team like Sheffield Wednesday (or maybe Nottingham Forest) to become one of the "big four".
If it's from the start of the Premier League then it's potentially anyone if a billionaire buys them. The rumour I heard was when Abramovich bought Chelsea in 2003, he only did so after they edged out Liverpool for 4th and the final Champions League place. Otherwise he might have gone in for Liverpool. As it is, if it's going to be a club big enough to sustain the position of "big club", then it has to be a club with a big enough core fan base. Everton, Manchester City, Leeds, Newcastle, West Ham or Spurs are the leading contenders. Particularly the London clubs or the clubs lucky enough to be the only team in that city.
Based on the Spurs POD:
But then there's the POD that Ferguson retires in 2002, making United weaker, therefore making it:
Most of United's top stars after a 5th place finish in 2003/04, would move to either Real Madrid, Spurs, Arsenal or Bayern Munich.
- Spurs
- Manchester United
- Arsenal
- Liverpool
But then there's the POD that Ferguson retires in 2002, making United weaker, therefore making it:
- Spurs
- Arsenal
- Liverpool
- Newcastle
Most of United's top stars after a 5th place finish in 2003/04, would move to either Real Madrid, Spurs, Arsenal or Bayern Munich.
Newcastle certainly had the resources to join the big four anywhere up to the mid 2000s. as late as 2005/6 they were spending big money on players (Luque, Owen, Martins) but many of the signings were flops (Luque) or injury prone (Owen) or too little too late (Martins) In the short time he was in charge, Souness alone spent over £50 million!
Shepherd and Hall spent assuming they'd be playing European football every season. They also spent pretty much their entire income from sponsorship for the next four years on Michael Owen. This wouldn't have been too much of a problem as long as they were achieving regular European football and finishing in at least the top 6 of the Premier League. They knew they'd get 52,000 every week.
When it became apparent they they didn't have the ability to achieve European football or a regular top 6 spot, they brought in Allardyce because they needed to stay in the Premier League and spend as little as possible.
The point I'm trying to make here is that Newcastle had all the ingredients to have broken into that big 4 (they still have many of them) They were on the cusp of it for a while in the early 2000s under Robson. If a couple of the signings had turned out to be better - Owen and Luque in particular - things could have been very different.
Shepherd and Hall spent assuming they'd be playing European football every season. They also spent pretty much their entire income from sponsorship for the next four years on Michael Owen. This wouldn't have been too much of a problem as long as they were achieving regular European football and finishing in at least the top 6 of the Premier League. They knew they'd get 52,000 every week.
When it became apparent they they didn't have the ability to achieve European football or a regular top 6 spot, they brought in Allardyce because they needed to stay in the Premier League and spend as little as possible.
The point I'm trying to make here is that Newcastle had all the ingredients to have broken into that big 4 (they still have many of them) They were on the cusp of it for a while in the early 2000s under Robson. If a couple of the signings had turned out to be better - Owen and Luque in particular - things could have been very different.
Devvy
Donor
I forgot Manchester City. Eminently possible.
Leeds I'm not so sure about....my gut feeling (despite being a Yorkshireman at hear) is that they were destined for the fall they got. Delusions of grandeur without the supporting framework sadly, same as Portsmouth, in the modern game of football.
Otherwise, snap!
I remember reading Robbie Fowler's autobiography and one of the Leeds directors came up to him when the offer from Man City came in and advised him to 'take the money and run son, this place is going to collapse' (or words to that affect).
Any club that was willing to offer Seth Johnson £35,000 a week (still pretty big money in football back then) was always riding for a fall. Some of the tales that came out later about the money being wasted were unbelievable - tropical fish, massive wages for average players, Peter Risdale being allowed within 100 miles of a boardroom etc etc.
What if the Barnsley Directors had offered a bigger bung than the Arsenal?
Total hearsay of course and I'm not specifically accusing anyone of anything!
Total hearsay of course and I'm not specifically accusing anyone of anything!
In the 1990/1991 season Sheffield Wednesday won the League Cup beating Manchester United in the final. This was notable as Sheffield Wednesday were in, what is now, the Championship.
In the following season Sheffield Wednesday finished 3rd in, what is now, the Premier League, having being promoted the season before. 4 points more would have seen Sheffield Wednesday win the league.
The next season on Sheffield Wednesday reached both the FA Cup Final and the League Cup Final - losing both to Arsenal.
Had Sheffield Wednesday won the League and won one of the cup finals against Arsenal then I think they would have been a top four club now.
In the following season Sheffield Wednesday finished 3rd in, what is now, the Premier League, having being promoted the season before. 4 points more would have seen Sheffield Wednesday win the league.
The next season on Sheffield Wednesday reached both the FA Cup Final and the League Cup Final - losing both to Arsenal.
Had Sheffield Wednesday won the League and won one of the cup finals against Arsenal then I think they would have been a top four club now.
I know someone who knows Johnson's family, and got the story from them.
SJ was on c10k pw at Derby. When Leeds came in for him, he went up to Elland Road with his agent to meet Ridsdale. Based on his Derby salary, and the fact that LUFC were a bigger, more successful club they had decided to try for 17k pw, but would settle for 15k.
As soon as they sat down Ridsdale came out with: "Thirty thousand a week".
They gawped at him, which he obviously misread: "OK, thirty-five thousand".
And that's how Seth Johnson got his 35k pw contract at Leeds.
My acquaintance says SJ's a good bloke, by the way.
Newcastle have defiantelty got the best potential for big four. It has the fans ( had 4th highest attendance in England even when it was in the championship) and goes hand in hand with a large stadium which other like Liverpool and Chelsea lack. It has good team in era need to cement your place ,late 90's earlier 00's ,just needs a bit of luck either with Keegan or maybe Sir Bobby. Newcastle once you get there and get some decent investment can remain there and its likely a bigger owner than Shepherd will pick it up as it good core fanbase therefore constant revnue and quite a good history. Even if you want a later POD man city owners originally wanted to buy Newcastle,but Ashley asked too much