Thanks for the critiques.
Another possibility is that maybe a railroad renaissance comes to southern Africa in the mid-1990s should Apartheid fall earlier?
Alternate Railways: V3
- Thread starter Duke Andrew of Dank
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Another possibility is that maybe a railroad renaissance comes to southern Africa in the mid-1990s should Apartheid fall earlier?
Would there still be enough room for the ATSF to run an extension of the Surf Line at least to San Quintin?
Sure, but the going between Ensenada and Los Arbelitos isn't gonna be an easy one.
@TheMann another thing that I had factored into my idea for a Tanzania rail line was the idea for Jan Smuts to be able to keep power after the 1948 elections. Now, I do remember that you posted previous ideas where South Africa saw a bit of an immigration boom which helped Smuts stop the National Party in '48.
That said, perhaps as a whole expanding a 3' 6'' Tanzania network would be better left for the 1990s? Perhaps as part of a global renaissance for railroads?
That said, perhaps as a whole expanding a 3' 6'' Tanzania network would be better left for the 1990s? Perhaps as part of a global renaissance for railroads?
To be fair, I did imagine the narrow gauge wouldn't last long due to Southern Pacific taking over the line soon after it began construction.
That kneecaps Apartheid but doesn't solve the problems with race in South Africa. It keeps the Afrikaner-supremacist types out of office in Pretoria but white rule is still going to come under fire at some point, and Rhodesia is completely unsaveable unless one is prepared to continue white rule in these places and all of the problems that causes.
What one needs to do with South Africa after WWII is allow its economic growth after the war (which was FAST until the early 1970s) to continue, which also had the benefit of knocking its unemployment rate down massively. If you can prevent the massive loss of education that the apartheid era directly created after this point and get South Africa on the path to majority rule in the late 1960s (doesn't have to be a fast improvement, but the smoother you can do this the better) and keep that government from engaging in self destructive behavior you could see South Africa make its way into the ranks of the first world by the late 1980s, almost certainly taking Botswana and Namibia along with it. Rhodesia is a much harder nut to crack because of many of the same reasons as the apartheid state.
One idea I did have was for some of the more insane laws to be cut back a little. For example, black railwaymen being allowed to operate locomotives.
Related topic but I've been reading the soul of a railway website, which has some magnificent photos of South Africa's steam operations from the 60s and 70s.
I know Namibia would tag along because it was SW Africa, but how would Bostswana be part exactly?
as for Rhodesia and the transition to Zimbabwe, one idea I had would be that Ian Smith is convinced to allow in moderate African leaders once Mugabe starts gaining power, or at least his cabinent sees the writing on the wall and convinces Mugabe to do so.
Botswana you're basically building up from the ground up. It became a nation primarily because Britain by the time of its independence (1966) was livid at the South Africans (and the Afrikaner-dominated South African government had no love for Britain, either) and thus Britain either needed to make it work from scratch or else the place would be led either by the Apartheid state (bad) or the Rhodesians (in Britain's mind, worse). Botswana is a small population state that has titanic natural resources and considering where they started they did an excellent job of development and I think if SA and Namibia prosper than Botswana doing so is pretty much guaranteed. While Botswana has been ruled by the same political party since independence, that party is very unwilling to tolerate corruption has been quite good on the democracy front.
Ian Smith became Rhodesia's Prime Minister by lead the ousting his predecessor for being too accommodating for Britain's desires to have Rhodesia enfranchise its black African residents, and the only reason he was willing to do deals with the more moderate of Black African leaders was because by the time he came to that realization he didn't have a choice - Rhodesia was neck deep in a VERY ugly civil war by then (where the rebels were shooting down airliners with surface to air missiles and massacring crash survivors and the Rhodesians were deliberately lacing food supplies with poison and trying to start anthrax and cholera epidemics among their enemies) and Smith's side was losing ground rather badly by then. He's not gonna give an inch and his cabinet won't either, and UDI - which brought with it a distinct risk of Britain invading Rhodesia to enforce their will, and a lot of the African leaders of the time publicly advocated for this - was the direct result.
Mugabe is an even bigger problem. Beyond him being a Marxist, he was intolerant of political opposition from Day One, and by the time the Rhodesians are willing to talk to him there is no if he'll be the one in charge, only when - and Gukurahindi was the direct result of him not liking opposition to his rule. You really do need to go rather further back than Smith or Mugabe, honestly probably to well before WWII, and hugely increase Rhodesia's already-rapid white population growth to such a degree that they have a position there that cannot be destroyed by majority rule.
Well I did have some ideas for a Commonwealth state in the vein of New Zealand or Australia to pop up that gaves native Africans rights like New Zealand gave the Maori rights. Though realistically, since I imagine whites would probably be the minority no matter what, I think it'd probably take until the 60s before the idea of making it that kind of country becomes popular.
Perhaps it's time to go back to more North America centric ideas?
Possible idea on this front: the UK encourages people immigrating from the Continent to settle in Rhodesia instead starting in the 1900s. In addition to heavy English, Scottish, and Irish settlement in Rhodesia up until the mid-1930s.
@TheMann perhaps if we have Apartheid end in the late 70s in favor of universal sufferage, a better idea for both my Tanzania lines and expansions of the network in Mozambique and Angola could be the 1990s and 2000s?
Either way, one idea I did have for South Africa in general was to preserve both the Avontuur Railway and Alfred County Railway as heritage railways. Especially since in the latter's case, I could see a TTL Disney theme park in Durban being another way the ACR can attract tourists.
Either way, one idea I did have for South Africa in general was to preserve both the Avontuur Railway and Alfred County Railway as heritage railways. Especially since in the latter's case, I could see a TTL Disney theme park in Durban being another way the ACR can attract tourists.
Hello everyone - hello @Duke Andrew of Dank. Is it out of the realms of wrong to include possible options for retaining lines into the present that existed once and don't now? I know that's stretching the definition of the thread, but oh Dr Beeching....
Actually @Duke Andrew of Dank, I was thinking of what used to be two regional main-lines that we could actually do with having put back in covering the south-west of Scotland and certainly one of them wouldn't be serving a tourist route. I have to think about this.
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I did have the idea that even before in the 1930s, Jan Smuts could start by inviting Indian, East Asian, and Coloureds into the United Party's fold. Or at least the Indians and East Asians.
@TheMann what other law changes could be made that are directly relevant to South African Railways in TTL? In regards to smooth improvements starting in the 60s?
I did have the idea that even before in the 1930s, Jan Smuts could start by inviting Indian, East Asian, and Coloureds into the United Party's fold. Or at least the Indians and East Asians.
@TheMann another thought I remembered was the what if where South Africa used 4' 8.5'' in regards to its standard gauge, and the impact it would have on motive power.
While this is one of the more marginal examples, I could imagine that instead of 0-8-0 switchers, they'd instead buy clones of USATC 2-8-0s for shunting.
While this is one of the more marginal examples, I could imagine that instead of 0-8-0 switchers, they'd instead buy clones of USATC 2-8-0s for shunting.
Idea on this front: perhaps in such a TL with said white population growth in the 1900s, South Africa's white immigrant population ends up consisting mostly of the same ethnic stock that created the Afrikaners. Namely Dutch, German, Scandinavian, and French Hugenot. Whereas Rhodesia's immigrant population consists more of British, Irish, Slavic, and Medditerranian stock.
On other possibility on this front was inspired by the Our Fair Country TL, where we have Rhodesia become a preferred new home in Africa speficially due to the reputation of Afrikaners as a xenophobic bunch.
@TheMann the immigration idea was loosely inspired by this video, and it did give me some ideas for what I'd want to do to both enable wider suffrage for non-whites in Rhodesia and eventually South Africa, but also keep southern Africa squarely in the Western Bloc in the Cold War. With a related note having eastern Africa be the Soviet Bloc's attempt to push into Africa.