Alternate Railways: V3

[Duke Andrew of Dank]

Company: Somerset & Dorset Heritage Railway
Gauge: 4' 8.5''
Operational: 1966 - Present
History: Despite a tepid reputation during its time as an actual rail line, being called the "Slow & Dirty" by detractors, this is a railway that was saved largely thanks to the local communities supporting the railway. Beginning as an effort to preserve the line for continued use on passenger traffic, the railway would instead find a different niche as the 1970s came into being and more of the UK's major rail lines were upgraded like the Great Central Main Line's transformation into a line mainly for fast freight (aside from the occasional regional expresses).

Nowadays, the line functions as a time portal to Britain's mainline railways in the late 1950s and the 1960s. The line starts from the junction with the former Midland branch line, now the Avon Valley Railway, at Bath Green Station. The Avon Valley was also kept thanks to preservationists and is now often used by mainline-certified locomotives, both steam and diesel, that are visiting the S&D line for Railtours with the smaller S&D engines also working the line at times. The line then continues south to the junction with the West Of England Main Line at Templecombe. The line's "mainline of the past" niche has led to it becoming a major success in rail preservation, to the point that in 1975 work began on restoring the abandoned line from Evercreech Junction west to Glastonbury. The line was reunited with the Highbridge Railway (formerly S&D Highbridge) line to Highbridge in 1980, which also brought in a respectable amount of vacation traffic to Highbridge and led to the line being upgraded to enable all of the locomotives on the line to access Highbridge. In the mid-2000s, it had been proposed that the line could regain its route to Bournemouth thanks to key parts of the line having been left abandoned where they sat, or used as rail trails and in one case a miniature railway. A feasibility study was started in 2009, and work since then work has begun to resurrect the whole line.

In the meantime, trains from Bath Green Park to Templecombe run behind a diverse steam fleet that largely celebrates the BR era and the S&DJR's mixed LMS and Southern heritage. Including small Midland locomotives and later war-era machines, as well as some diesels.

Since I'm going to take inspiration from @Devvy and have several OTL Heritage lines stay under BR, I’ll be including some real life locomotives in the mixes. With that in mind, the current roster of the S&D Heritage Railway is as follows:

Operable Steam Locomotives
- Somerset & Dorset Joint Railway 2P Class 4-4-0 #69: Famously the last of the Midland/LMS 2P class in existence, this engine spends most of her time painted in the S&DJR's Prussian Blue with Yellow lining. Pretty ironic, given how the engine doesn't spend quite as much time on the S&D lines due to its smaller size.
- Southern Railway Battleship Class 2-8-2 #33087 "Royal Sovereign": This locomotive represents a class that was popular on the line thanks to its ability to handle The Pines Express single-handedly. This locomotive is today one of the flashship engines of the line and returned to service in 1981, being painted in SR Malachite Green. (NOTE: This is based on something @ThePolarWorks wrote up).
- LMS 8F Class 2-8-0 #48305: One of several residents located on OTL’s GCR Heritage Railway. Painted in BR Plain Black with Early Emblem.
- London & South Western N15 Class 4-6-0 #777 “Sir Lamiel”: Under Restoration with plans to make her eligible for mainline certification. Another locomotive operable at OTL’s GCR.
- British Railways 9F Class 2-10-0 #92214 “Morning Star”: Under Restoration to working order, with plans made to repaint the engine into BR Lined Black.
- Somerset & Dorset Joint Railway 7F Class 2-8-0 #53808: Under Overhaul, with the possibility of restoring her to her original S&DJR #88 identity.
- LMS Black Five Class 4-6-0 #45305 “Alderman A.E. Draper”: Stored, awaiting overhaul and mainline recertification. A proposal has been made to repaint the locomotive LMS Crimson upon return to service.
- Southern Railway West Country Class 4-6-2 #34039 "Boscastle": Under overhaul with plans to paint the locomotive into a livery based on LBSCR Stroudley Yellow, which had been proposed as a livery for express engines on the Southern Region early on in BR days.

Diesel Locomotives
- British Railways Class 33 #D6566: Painted in BR Green.
- British Railways Class 33 #D6575: The other class 33, and also painted in BR Green.
- British Railways Class 47 #47579 "James Nightall G.C.": Mainline certified and commonly seen on both this line and the mainline, to say nothing of the Avon Valley.
- British Railways Class 20 #D8059: Operated with its original BR number and painted in BR Green.
- British Railways Class 20 #20188: Operated with its TOPS number and painted in BR Blue.
- British Railways Class 08 0-6-0D #D4095: Built at Horwich Works, and used as a shunter at Bath Green Park yard.
- British Railways 115 Class #51859, #59678, and #51880: A popular choice for trips from Templecombe to Highbridge particularly thanks to the 59678 having a buffet counter installed.
- English Electric 0-6-0DH #D1120 "David J. Cook": Used as shunter at the Highbridge Terminal.

OOC: Special thanks to @Devvy and @QTXAdsy for inspiration.

 

[Duke Andrew of Dank]

Company: Grand Canyon & Santa Fe Railway (GCSF)
GAUGE: 4' 8.5''
Operational: 1973 - present

Few of America's natural landmarks are as beloved or well-known worldwide as the Grand Canyon. Carved out by the Colorado River through northeastern Arizona, the region attracts up to 7 million visitors every year for its numerous activities. Nowadays many come in by car for their visits, usually with their own campers or reservations at the numerous illustrious hotels across the area. However, some prefer to come in from the town of Williams to the south, on board a rail line that has seemed frozen in time thanks to its use of equipment almost entirely bought secondhand from the line's former owner.

The GCSF's history begins when the Grand Canyon was beginning to rise in popularity as a tourist attraction across the entire world. Hoping to capitalize on this success, the Atchison, Topeka, & Santa Fe Railway started construction on a branch line from its famous Transcon at Williams, Arizona north to the Canyon's South Rim. When it first opened on September 17, 1901 this line became a quick hit, whisking in passengers from all across the country. Unfortunately though, the ridership began to decline in earnest during the 1930s due to the Great Depression, then with the onset of the automobiles in the 1950s. However, there would prove to be an idea that ultimately would ensure the line's posterity.

No one is quite certain who proposed it, but eventually someone raised the idea that the Santa Fe turn the regular trains into a more tourist affair. Part of this, as was proposed, would be to transfer one of their recently retired steam locomotives to the branch line. As steam locomotives were mostly quickly being phased out from the desert-running ATSF, it was hoped that the novelty would attract visitors who'd otherwise use alternate means. The locomotive selected for this new purpose, MTN Class 3743, was transferred to the Winslow Branch in time for the Summer of 1952. Eventually, proof of ridership increase became apparent with this newfound novelty, and the choice was made to make 3743 the designated locomotive for seasonally-run trains on the branch.

By 1970 however, the Santa Fe realized that surrendering its passenger services to Amtrak was an inevitably, as did many others looking into the railroad scene at the time. As such, preservationists led by entertainer Arthur Godfrey rallied to ensure the line's continued operation. These efforts would soon be endorsed and supported by many of Godfrey's Hollywood mates, chief among them Walt Disney and his son Robert Peter "Rob" Disney [1]. As a result of these noble efforts, the ATSF would mark the transfer of ownership to the Grand Canyon Railway Society. After two years of renovation, the first Grand Canyon & Santa Fe passenger train to the South Rim ran on June 23, 1973. Including a plethora of old Santa Fe, Southern Pacific, and Rio Grande coaches that had been retired instead of being given to Amtrak. Over the next few years, the GCSF would acquire some coaching stock that had also belonged previously to other railroads like a few Southern Pacific "Harriman" coaches, Rio Grande coaches, and even a Pullman or two. Over the next few years, the passenger stock roster would go on to include a few Amtrak coaches as well, and even some Canadian National coaches repainted into GSCF colors of orange, yellow trim, and pine green.

Noticing the growing success however, ambitions for bigger projects were set in stone. Chief (no pun intended) among these would be when in 1974, the GCSF began working to restore parts of the original Peavine Subdivision via Prescott. As most of said alignment had been replaced with a less circutous route in 1948. However, the original alignment had remained in use for passenger traffic per an appeal to the Arizona DOT (and Amtrak's continuation of the Super Chief still uses the original mainline to this day). The main ambition of this project would be to help give the GCSF a chance to run trains from the South Rim all the way to the state capital of Phoenix. This project, taking about four years, and was finished in 1978, with the GCSF using trackage rights on the ATSF between Williams and Ash Fork, then between Skull Valley and Phoenix. The new Phoenix - Grand Canyon services would take on the name the Pines-Canyon Limited, while the more local run between Williams and the South Rim is now called the Williams Local.

In the years since, the GC&SF has become a major tourist railroad. Its fleet of classic steam and passenger diesels, mostly of authentic ATSF heritage, carry tourists in a fleet of restored passenger equipment of a more diverse heritage through the breathtaking but desolate desert and the piney hill country of Arizona. In addition, the GCSF also works with the Arizona Railway Museum, for special events. The locomotive roster is all operable, albeit used in turns for maintenance costs:

Steam Locomotives
- Santa Fe MTN-1 #3743 (4-8-2 Mountain): Operational
- Santa Fe MKD-5 #4089 (2-8-2 Mikado): Operational
- Santa Fe HVM-1a #3751 (4-8-4 Northern): Operational [2]
- Mexican National Railways B-6 #504 (0-6-0 Switcher): Under Restoration [3]

Diesel Locomotives
- Santa Fe #33L, A, B, & C (EMD F3 A-B-B-A set): Operational
- Santa Fe #82, #80A, and #85 (EMD E8 A-B-A set): Operational
- Santa Fe #59L, #55A, and #60L (ALCO PA A-B-A set): Under Restoration
- GCSF #10, #11, #12, #13, #14, and #15 (EMD F40PH): All Operational [4]
- Santa Fe #2117, #2134, and #2188 (EMD GP7u): All Operational [5]
- Santa Fe SF30C #9501: Stored, Pending Display at South Rim Depot

Former Equipment
- Santa Fe MKD-4 #3185 (2-8-2 Mikado): At Grapevine Vintage Railroad, Pending Possible Overhaul [6]
- Union Pacific TTT-6 #5511 (2-10-2 Santa Fe): Now Operated by North Star Railtours in Minneapolis [7]

[1] Another change to the culture in TTL was thanks to Walt opting to quit smoking as penance when he didn't put out a cigarette properly, causing his parents' new house to explode due to the gas leak that caused his mother's death in OTL.
[2] The story of how 3751 became part of the GCSF fleet is a rather complex one. In TTL, Walt Disney and Rob Disney helped preserve several more ATSF steamers, among them HVM-2 #3774. At first they leased the locomotive to Flagstaff for display until 1977, when the lease wasn't renewed. At first, the 3774 was presented for a possible restoration candidate by the GCSF, but the San Bernardino Historical Society suggested that they instead trade the 3774 with the GCSF for their own 3751. The big Northern was restored to active service in 1980, and has been a star to this day. The 3774 itself would later be restored in an returned to service in 1990, which combined with 2925 in New Mexico makes for three operable ATSF Northerns. As you can guess, reunions on the GCSF are a common special event.
[3] Unique for being a British-built locomotive in North America, and also being an inside cylinder locomotive. The GCSF plans to rebuild the locomotive to resemble Thomas The Tank Engine for Day Out With Thomas events, which would be coordinated with the Arizona Railway Museum in nearby Ash Fork. Recently the GCSF also bought a pair of NSWGR coaches from Australia and plans to repaint them to resemble Thomas' coaches.
[4] Acquired mainly from Amtrak and NJ Transit during the late 2000s, and the only diesels not originally bought from the ATSF. They're used mainly on shorter Williams - South Rim trains when either one of the Mikados is not available or as assistance for 3751 on mainline trains. They even have their own special paint scheme unique to the GCSF: think the OTL BNSF Heritage II Paint Scheme, right down to the dark green.
[5] These three are used mainly on what little freight traffic the GCSF has on a regular basis. Sometimes filling in for other locomotives if needed.
[6] This locomotive served the line alongside 3743 and 4089 during its early years. As trains grew larger and heavier though, the locomotive was placed on standby and eventually determined to be surplus to requirement after the acquisition of 3751. The Mikado spent some years bouncing from owner to owner, and is now undergoing overhaul for the Grapevine Vintage Railway in Texas with plans to have her join Southern Pacific #2248 and Texas & Pacific #700.
[7] The UP donated the 5511 in 1979 to help with the restoration of UP-5 4-12-2 #9052 by Topeka-based Sunflower Railtours, which coincidentally also operates ex-Santa Fe "Blue Goose" HVP-2 4-6-4 #3463. The GCSF originally planned to convert the 5511 to oil firing with an ex-Great Northern tender, but the 3751's arrival scuttled these plans. So it was displayed at Williams until its sale in 1994 to North Star Railtours, which restored it in the late 2000s to operate alongside Milwaukee Road #261 and Soo Line #2719.

 

[Duke Andrew of Dank]

[2] The story of how 3751 became part of the GCSF fleet is a rather complex one. In TTL, Walt Disney and Rob Disney helped preserve several more ATSF steamers, among them HVM-2 #3774. At first they leased the locomotive to Flagstaff for display until 1977, when the lease wasn't renewed. At first, the 3774 was presented for a possible restoration candidate by the GCSF, but the San Bernardino Historical Society suggested that they instead trade the 3774 with the GCSF for their own 3751. The big Northern was restored to active service in 1980, and has been a star to this day. The 3774 itself would later be restored in an returned to service in 1990, which combined with 2925 in New Mexico makes for three operable ATSF Northerns. As you can guess, reunions on the GCSF are a common special event.

Another possibility I've considered is that in TTL, the ATSF works with the SBRHS to restore 3751 and keep it based out of San Bernardino like OTL with annual GCSF visits, whereas the ATSF could possibly instead donate 4-6-4 #3455 to the GCSF instead.

 

[Duke Andrew of Dank]

This is based on a series of posts I had posted on @Joe Bonkers' "Replace Real Railroads with Model Railroads" thread which were based on this list of unused railways. Since that thread died, I decided to post some new ideas I had for that premise on this thread.

Kansas, Little Rock, & Dallas
Built in the 1910s, this line's main network ran out of Dallas north to Honey Grove, Texas and Salisaw, Oklahoma where the line split in two directions. The Northern Line continued running north to Kansas City, Missouri via Vinitia, Oklahoma and Garnett, Kansas. The Eastern Line ran east to Ft. Smith, Arkansas, then ran on a line closely following the southern banks of the Arkansas River to Little Rock. Like many other regional railroads sparse on branch lines, this route instead billed itself for bridge traffic from the Upper Midwest to Texas and the southwest until 1925, when it joined the Cotton Belt as one of several railroads under the Southern Pacific umbrella. Today, most of the line is still used by the Southern Pacific as a trunk line from Chicago to Houston via Kansas City and Dallas.

Peoria Air Line Railway
In 1893. Dr. Wellington Adams proposed the idea of an electrified Chicago to St. Louis electric railway that would be able to operate at 100 mph, and believed that such a line could be built in a year. However, public skepticism meant that Adams would have to start simpler with his ideas. The result was an interurban connection Chicago and Peoria via the cities of Aurora, Ottowa, Streator, and Eureka. The line was constructed in a year and half from 1895 to 1897, and would prove to be a successful interurban during the electric railway. When the decline of interurbans began in the 1920s however, the line would be absorded into the Illinois Terminal Railway as part of its ambition to survive as a major bridge traffic carrier. This line, along with the IT's Kansas City extension (mentioned below) would lead to the line becoming a desirable partner for the Southern Pacific, which finally acquired the IT to finally reach Chicago on the SP's own terms in 1978.

Illinois Terminal Kansas City Extension
Built in 1903, this part of the Illinois Terminal network was an oddball compared to the rest of the network. In contrast to running through the namesake state, this line ran from the state capital of Springfield to a crossing over the Mississippi at Louisiana, Missouri. from there the network ran west to Bowling Green, Mexico, and Columbia (with an impressive overpass over the AT&SF's St. Louis division). The Missouri River was crossed east of McBaine before a straight shot west to Independence and Kansas City. Built mainly by stiching together smaller electric railways in the region, this line would grant the IT access to connections and traffic futher west, and also make the line a legitimate competitor to the Wabash for traffic bypassing Chicagoland. Much like the aeformentioned Peoria Air Line Railway, this would lead to the line becoming part of the Southern Pacific in the 1970s.

Union Central Railway
Constructed in 1908 as a trunk line from Houston, Texas north to Paris, Texas with branch lines to Palestine and Waco, Texas. The line to Paris was extended soon after to De Queen, Arkansas via Harris, Oklahoma. This led to the railroad becoming part of the Kansas City Southern system in the 1910s. It has remained a part of the KCS to this day, and once saw the KCS' Bayou City Limited from Kansas City to Houston until the creation of Amtrak in the late 1960s.

Kansas City & Memphis Railway
Formed in 1910, this company intended to construct a trunk line from Memphis, Tennessee to Fayetteville, Arkansas via Searcy, Judsonia, Augusta, Cherry Valley, and Huntsville. The Kansas City Southern took interest in the line, and purchased the ROW to extend it northeast to Gentry, Arkansas. Much like the aeformentioned Union Central Railway, this line would become a major artery for the KCS from them on. In the Golden Age, the line also saw passenger service with the Tennessee Belle connecting the line to Kansas City in competition with the St. Louis - San Fransisco.

Port Arthur & Western Railway
Running through the very south of Texas, this route began as the Texas Western Narrow Gauge Railway, which ran a 3' 6'' line from Presidio on the Mexican border to Houston via Rocksprings, Gonzalez, Columbus, and Searcy. By 1887 however the entire line had been converted to standard gauge. In 1905, the railway went east to an interchange with the Kansas City Southern at Port Arthur. This would result in a partnership between the two railroads that would last throughout the rest of the renamed PA&W's existence. Included in this friendship was the extension of a line from Gonzales to Laredo via George West, which in turn would springboard a line to Eagle Pass via Cotalla and Carrizo Springs. Today, the PA&W is part of the KCS network and easily one of the most important parts.

 

[Duke Andrew of Dank]

@isayyo2 what could the railroad situation look like if the Baja Peninsula were to be a separate US state? I had some ideas so far in those regards, but wanted a plausibiltiy check on some of them:
1) The main railroad scene is an extension of the Southern Pacific/AT&SF rivalry in the Southwest.
2) The primary trunk line through the state, from Tiajuana to Luke's Cape (anglicization of San Luis Cabo), was originally started as a 3' 6'' gauge line from Los Angeles to San Diego and Tiajuana via Temecula and Escondido. This line was acquired by the Southern Pacific and converted to Standard Gauge by 1889. The leg between Tiajuana and El Pervendir parralels OTL's Mexican Federal Highway 1, with a line north from Ensenada to a junction with the SDA&E to Matanuco. Plus another line from Mexicali to a junction a San Felipe. The La Paz - Luke's Cape section runs via Los Barriles.
3) I imagined that the Santa Fe's prescence in the state would be limited to an extension of the Surf Line south to Esenada and maybe San Felipe. As well as a small leg of track from La Paz to Luke's Cape via Todos Santos and Pescaderos, which shuttles traffic from rail ferries that cross the Gulf of California from Topolobampo. I imagine that the AT&SF La Paz line would probably be sold off by the 1990s, and possibly become the line for a regional commuter service.

 

[Duke Andrew of Dank]

@isayyo2 what could the railroad situation look like if the Baja Peninsula were to be a separate US state? I had some ideas so far in those regards, but wanted a plausibiltiy check on some of them:
1) The main railroad scene is an extension of the Southern Pacific/AT&SF rivalry in the Southwest.
2) The primary trunk line through the state, from Tiajuana to Luke's Cape (anglicization of San Luis Cabo), was originally started as a 3' 6'' gauge line from Los Angeles to San Diego and Tiajuana via Temecula and Escondido. This line was acquired by the Southern Pacific and converted to Standard Gauge by 1889. The leg between Tiajuana and El Pervendir parralels OTL's Mexican Federal Highway 1, with a line north from Ensenada to a junction with the SDA&E to Matanuco. Plus another line from Mexicali to a junction a San Felipe. The La Paz - Luke's Cape section runs via Los Barriles.
3) I imagined that the Santa Fe's prescence in the state would be limited to an extension of the Surf Line south to Esenada and maybe San Felipe. As well as a small leg of track from La Paz to Luke's Cape via Todos Santos and Pescaderos, which shuttles traffic from rail ferries that cross the Gulf of California from Topolobampo. I imagine that the AT&SF La Paz line would probably be sold off by the 1990s, and possibly become the line for a regional commuter service.

@TheMann does this seem plausible, or does it need some changes?

 

[TheMann]

@TheMann does this seem plausible, or does it need some changes?

Give me a day or two to check it out and I'll get back to you on that.

 

[Peg Leg Pom]

The Longmoor Military Railway re-enactment society.

Formed in 1969 to take over the Longmoor Military Railway formerly operated to train Royal Engineers troops in how to run a railway.

The society is unique in that it allows its members an excuse to not only play with trains but also play at being soldiers at the same time.

Longmoor Military Railway - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

 

[Duke Andrew of Dank]

@TheMann if you have written your feedback to my Baja California ideas, would you be interested in hearing an idea I had for African railways?

 

[TheMann]

@TheMann if you have written your feedback to my Baja California ideas, would you be interested in hearing an idea I had for African railways?

Sure. I've been busy and haven't gotten much look at Baja lately though.

 

[Duke Andrew of Dank]

Sure. I've been busy and haven't gotten much look at Baja lately though.

Feel free to take your time on the Baja feedback if you need to.

As for Africa, my basic idea was based on this map of proposed rail lines by the Scheller Insitute.

My idea was for a "South Tanganyika Railway", later "South Tanzania Railway" that would be a 3' 6'' gauge line running the same course as the OTL TAZARA Railway between Dar Es Salaam and Northern Rhodesia (which I had the potential idea to merge with Southern Rhodesia to create a TTL Federation of Greater Zambia). My idea would be that either:
A) it's built in the 1900s by the German colonial administration, which bites them in the ass for obvious reasons.
OR
B) It's built after the war under British rule to try and enable a trunk line where goods from South Asia can be expedited journies across Southern Africa.

At first it's just the Dar Es Salaam line, but then a line to Mtwaba from Mbeya, with some other lines connecting with the network in Mozambique. During the steam era on this line, the main form of power is 3' 6'' gauge derivatives of the EAR Class 30 2-8-4s, albeit with the change of larger six-axle tenders.

I admit I will need to hash out details for the idea for how to develop southern Africa enough for this, but it's some early ideas.

 

[TheMann]

Feel free to take your time on the Baja feedback if you need to.

As for Africa, my basic idea was based on this map of proposed rail lines by the Scheller Insitute.

My idea was for a "South Tanganyika Railway", later "South Tanzania Railway" that would be a 3' 6'' gauge line running the same course as the OTL TAZARA Railway between Dar Es Salaam and Northern Rhodesia (which I had the potential idea to merge with Southern Rhodesia to create a TTL Federation of Greater Zambia). My idea would be that either:
A) it's built in the 1900s by the German colonial administration, which bites them in the ass for obvious reasons.
OR
B) It's built after the war under British rule to try and enable a trunk line where goods from South Asia can be expedited journies across Southern Africa.

At first it's just the Dar Es Salaam line, but then a line to Mtwaba from Mbeya, with some other lines connecting with the network in Mozambique. During the steam era on this line, the main form of power is 3' 6'' gauge derivatives of the EAR Class 30 2-8-4s, albeit with the change of larger six-axle tenders.

I admit I will need to hash out details for the idea for how to develop southern Africa enough for this, but it's some early ideas.

There is a variety of problems here, starting with the economic. The only reason the TAZARA Railway was built in the first place was to screw over the South Africans, and the only reason you'd go with the line at Cape Gauge is to make it compatible with the existing stock used by the Zambian railways system. Both of the timeframes you mention make it seem more likely it would use standard gauge if it was designed to the highest standards and its cost wasn't as much of a concern. But if you're thinking of the system as an extension of those used in South Africa it makes a lot more sense.

The primary goal for that route under any circumstance is going to be getting products made in Zambia (most of all its immense copper reserves) to the sea for export and moving supplies the country needs to Zambia and interior regions of Tanganyika/Tanzania. The idea of a greater Zambia is ASB, Sorry - it exists because of the British South Africa Company and Cecil Rhodes, you're much more likely to end up with a Greater Rhodesia, but that's very unlikely as well - there was always a division between Southern Rhodesia (today's Zimbabwe) and its northern parts, and as the colonial authorities are always going to be far more concerned with the interests of their countrymen than the Africans, Southern Rhodesia (which was home to the overwhelming majority of Rhodesia's European population) is always going to get the lion's share of the development resources outside of one's determined by geography, such as resource deposits. The Germans wouldn't be able to build a line into British territory in the early 20th Century (nor do I think they would even try), but once Britain wins the WWI battles in Africa and controls a Corridor that stretched from South Africa to the Mediterranean (the Cape to Cairo railway, in other words), it makes the possibility of Britain investing in a comprehensive network for its colonies a lot more possible and reasonable, which could make something like the TAZARA possible, but even then you'd need a commitment to develop the areas around it to make such a massive investment make sense.

 

[Duke Andrew of Dank]

But if you're thinking of the system as an extension of those used in South Africa it makes a lot more sense.

That's exactly what I was thinking.

 

[Duke Andrew of Dank]

nd as the colonial authorities are always going to be far more concerned with the interests of their countrymen than the Africans, Southern Rhodesia (which was home to the overwhelming majority of Rhodesia's European population) is always going to get the lion's share of the development resources outside of one's determined by geography, such as resource deposits

Damn. Ah well.

 

[Duke Andrew of Dank]

f Britain investing in a comprehensive network for its colonies a lot more possible and reasonable, which could make something like the TAZARA possible, but even then you'd need a commitment to develop the areas around it to make such a massive investment make sense

FWIW my idea was to make the British territories in southern one of Africa's most important commercial hubs. Almost up there with North Africa.

 

[Duke Andrew of Dank]

@TheMann fwiw I did have the idea that later on down the road, the Tanzania rail line and Angola are used by savvy Americans and British so that they can keep Tanzania and Angola aligned with the west. So that they won't feel any obligation to be soft on South Africa even in spite of the horrors of apartheid.

Likewise the network is used to get Zambia and Zimbabwe to be aligned with the west. For the same reason of wanting to keep South Africa under pressure without the risk of allowing communism to get a foothold.

 

[Duke Andrew of Dank]

The Germans wouldn't be able to build a line into British territory in the early 20th Century (nor do I think they would even try)

I wasn't even thinking they'd build any further than Mbeya anyway.

 

[TheMann]

@TheMann fwiw I did have the idea that later on down the road, the Tanzania rail line and Angola are used by savvy Americans and British so that they can keep Tanzania and Angola aligned with the west. So that they won't feel any obligation to be soft on South Africa even in spite of the horrors of apartheid.

Likewise the network is used to get Zambia and Zimbabwe to be aligned with the west. For the same reason of wanting to keep South Africa under pressure without the risk of allowing communism to get a foothold.

I can see this being possible, but it does make for a few problems. Tanzania's government until 1985 was led by an avowed socialist who was close to Mao, and getting support from the United States is tricky and from the Brits a lot tricker still. Zambia has a similar problem, Zimbabwe a whole lot worse of the same problem - picking between Apartheid and Robert Mugabe is picking between two shit sandwiches.

 

[Duke Andrew of Dank]

I can see this being possible, but it does make for a few problems. Tanzania's government until 1985 was led by an avowed socialist who was close to Mao, and getting support from the United States is tricky and from the Brits a lot tricker still. Zambia has a similar problem, Zimbabwe a whole lot worse of the same problem - picking between Apartheid and Robert Mugabe is picking between two shit sandwiches.

Admittedly trying to iron out details there will have to change a bit due to how you pointed out uniting the two Rhodesias as one country isn't plausible.

Did you analyize my Baja California ideas a bit more in the meantime?

 

[TheMann]

@isayyo2 what could the railroad situation look like if the Baja Peninsula were to be a separate US state? I had some ideas so far in those regards, but wanted a plausibiltiy check on some of them:
1) The main railroad scene is an extension of the Southern Pacific/AT&SF rivalry in the Southwest.

That makes sense but also heavily depends on Mexico's economic state. A prosperous northwestern Mexico makes the possibility of the FCP getting into the act against the ATSF and SP almost certain. (They both operated on the FCP's turf until the Mexican Government nationalized their lines in the early 1950s, so returning the favor would only be logical, and wise from an economic standpoint.) Both SP and ATSF would be almost certain to spread in this direction.

2) The primary trunk line through the state, from Tiajuana to Luke's Cape (anglicization of San Luis Cabo), was originally started as a 3' 6'' gauge line from Los Angeles to San Diego and Tiajuana via Temecula and Escondido. This line was acquired by the Southern Pacific and converted to Standard Gauge by 1889. The leg between Tiajuana and El Pervendir parralels OTL's Mexican Federal Highway 1, with a line north from Ensenada to a junction with the SDA&E to Matanuco. Plus another line from Mexicali to a junction a San Felipe. The La Paz - Luke's Cape section runs via Los Barriles.

The viability of this route would depend on population numbers. It makes all the sense in the world to go San Diego to Tijuana to Ensenada, but from there you have a few choiuces to make. Following Mexico Highway 1 south of Ensenada can be done (there are gaps in the mountain ranges to make this work), but unless there is a lot of good reason to run trains in this direction I wouldn't do this if I was going from Los Angeles down the Peninsula. The terrain rather forces a railroad inland between Ensenada and Colnett, and while running down the coast from there is relatively easy (very easy from Colnett to El Soccorito - it's a flat coastal plain), south of there is gets tricker. Not impossible, but the line from El Rosario de Arriba to the Gulf of California side pretty much has to follow the Highway 1, and the rise over (or through) El Aguajito is gonna be tough and expensive to build. You'll want to get as many people and as much business as you can along the coastal plain to stimulate demand for the route to work.

I see the best option for railroads down Baja to be a line south from Mexicali to the Gulf of California and following it, mostly following today's Highway 5 as far as San Luis Gonzaga. From there its continuing to follow the Highway to climb over the Terracia Chapala to get to Chapala. (You're proposed line from Ensenada would probably meet the main line here.) From there its stick to Highway 1 to cross back over the Peninsula, reaching the Pacific near Rancho Maravilla and sticking to the coast to Las Perchas and Diaz Ordaz. South of there you have a decision to make - swinging back across to the Gulf of California side of the Peninsula makes for more business but means two climbs from sea level to passes of ~1500 feet, whereas sticking to the coast on the Pacific Ocean side is less business but much easier from a construction perspective. I'd personally go the coast route via Laguna San Ignacio and San Juanico. once reconnected with Highway 1, it's southwest to El Medano, then over the Peninsula once more to La Paz. (The hills here are rather lower and you have lots of room for run-up, so this isn't as difficult as climbs before.) From there is easy - follow Highway 1 and 19 via La Garita and Todos Santos back to the Pacific, then south from there to Cabo San Lucas.

Alternately from La Paz to Cabo San Lucas, you could follow Highway 1 from La Paz to La Canoa, go through the ridge to the east of that and along the river valley to Los Barriles and then follow the valleys south of them via El Campamento, Agua Caliente and Miraflores to San Jose del Cabo, then southwest from there to Cabo San Lucas. This route is harder to build but has much more on-line traffic and population.

If Baja is a US state and the rest of Mexico isn't involved here, it makes no sense to do this line in anything other than standard gauge, and figure out how to have more people live here, starting with water supply and economic reasons. If Mexico is prosperous car ferries from the ocean terminal at Topolobampo to La Paz would be a good connecting route as well.

3) I imagined that the Santa Fe's prescence in the state would be limited to an extension of the Surf Line south to Esenada and maybe San Felipe. As well as a small leg of track from La Paz to Luke's Cape via Todos Santos and Pescaderos, which shuttles traffic from rail ferries that cross the Gulf of California from Topolobampo. I imagine that the AT&SF La Paz line would probably be sold off by the 1990s, and possibly become the line for a regional commuter service.

As that ATSF route is the shorter and less-graded route it would make sense to have it be kept in service for through freight service. If you want regional passenger service in this area you better spike the population in a big way and figure out how in this very-water-short region to make that work.

Did you analyize my Baja California ideas a bit more in the meantime?

See above. 🙂