Alternate Peaces For Seven Years' War

[Helios Ra]

What are some possibilities for alternate treaties ending the Seven Years' War (1756-1763)?

The Treaty of Paris between Great Britain, France and Spain historically ceded most of New France, French Indian posessions, Spanish Florida, and a variety of Caribbean islands to Great Britain.
The German powers signed the Treaty of Hubertusberg, essentially a white peace. Despite the lack of territorial gains, Prussia under Frederick the Great was proven to be a world power.
Russia had bowed out of the war in the 1762 Treaty of St. Petersburg, despite Russia doing well in the war.
Sweden made peace the same year, retaining (IIRC) Swedish Pommerania, which had been occupied by the Prussians (again, IIRC).

To return to my original question, could things have gone differently during the various negotiations? Could Prussia have taken Swedish Pommerania in a peace deal? Might they have taken multiethnic Bohemian Silesia to further complete their previous victories durig the War of the Austrian Succession? Or annexed parts of Saxony?
What of France's colonial empire? At least according to a snippet on Wikipedia, France was given the choice of ceding New France or its Caribbean posessions. Historically they agreed to the former, only retaining St. Pierre and Miquelon to this day. Could Great Britain have seized both?
Spain got off leniently it appears to me, ceding Florida but gaining western French Louisiana. The British occupied Havana and Manila (perhaps more?) during the war. Would that be enough to take Cuba or the Phillipines? I'm
more doubtful of the latter than the former.

The possibilities I mentioned would obviously have many effects. The loss of profitable sugar producing islands would likely have a negative effect on French
finances unless I'm mistaken, and would surely sow more seeds of discontent, perhaps leading to an earlier French Revolution if the situation is handled
poorly. Where might Canada stand in such a situation? Monarchists? Republicans? Nationalists?
I'm sure the aquisition of more land in Germany by Prussia would have some
effect on German nationalism; though I really couldn't say what myself. Susano?
British colonials may grumble over the lack of land to settle across the Appalachians, but would it affect any feelings of rebellion?

That was rather (ok, very) long, but it covers everything I can think of the might be relevent to my planned timeline. Your help is very much appreicated!

 

[von Adler]

AFAIK, the Prussian troops entered Pommerania on several occasions, but never ockupied the entire province or laid siege to Stralsund. Sweden agreed to a peace since the supply was so bad they never managed to get any far and when the Russians made peace the situation changed too much for the Swedes' comfort. To the Prussians, the Swedes were a nuisance, but not really a deadly threat. Making a status quo peace (a separate peace between only Prussia and Sweden, btw) allowed them to use the 5000+ men on other fronts.

 

[Iserlohn]

According to my knowledge the British occupied more than just Havana on Cuba, thus effectivly controlling the entire island.

Gaining the entire Phillipines is out of the question for Britain, but Cuba was very likely. The only reason they did not recieve it instead of Florida was because the Spanish were afraid of losing their control over New Spain. If this fear would not have been present, they would probably have ceded it. Furthermore I think Britain should have tried to purchase Western Louisiana from Spain after finding out about the secret transfer.

Regarding the German situation more land for Prussia leads to more hatred from the other major German players, i.e. Bavaria and Austria. Thus Prussia would have it slightly more harder to "force" a diplomatic German unification.

 

[aktarian]

The German powers signed the Treaty of Hubertusberg, essentially a white peace. Despite the lack of territorial gains, Prussia under Frederick the Great was proven to be a world power.

Not quite. They proved themselves to be a power, but not of first order. Prussia only became great power with unification of Germany.

They did, however, proven themselves to be something you need to take into account when doing things in Germany

Russia had bowed out of the war in the 1762 Treaty of St. Petersburg, despite Russia doing well in the war.

Russia doing well in war is debatable. Russian troubles were logistics and power projction. while they could field large army an move it into central europe it was problematic maintaining it there, depending on their own shoddy logistics or support from allies which was reluctant at best. Plus theywere seldom in a hurry to actually get anywhere, something that caused all sets of troubles for either set of allies.

Overall I think Prussia got what it could.7YW was a close run thing for them and the mere act of survival and retaining territory is a huge victory. I think getting (bits of) Saxony could happen but I don't think others would go for it.

 

[Helios Ra]

AFAIK, the Prussian troops entered Pommerania on several occasions, but never ockupied the entire province or laid siege to Stralsund. Sweden agreed to a peace since the supply was so bad they never managed to get any far and when the Russians made peace the situation changed too much for the Swedes' comfort. To the Prussians, the Swedes were a nuisance, but not really a deadly threat. Making a status quo peace (a separate peace between only Prussia and Sweden, btw) allowed them to use the 5000+ men on other fronts.

I thought I had read somewhere that earlier in the war they did get close to laying siege to Stralsund. I could be wrong though of course.

Are there any reasons why Prussia might see putting the extra effort into occupying and incorporating Swedish Pomerania? I'm not aware of any particularly valuable resources in the region, and military matters are above me.

According to my knowledge the British occupied more than just Havana on Cuba, thus effectivly controlling the entire island.

Gaining the entire Phillipines is out of the question for Britain, but Cuba was very likely. The only reason they did not recieve it instead of Florida was because the Spanish were afraid of losing their control over New Spain. If this fear would not have been present, they would probably have ceded it. Furthermore I think Britain should have tried to purchase Western Louisiana from Spain after finding out about the secret transfer.

I thought it would likely be as much for the Phillipines.
On Cuba, it seems like it would be difficult to convince Spain on this matter if that was their biggest fear. If they retained Florida and got western Louisiana, would the Spanish be willing to move their government in Cuba to St. Augustine in Florida? As I understand it, Louisiana was governed from Havana rather loosely, so it would seem to be a reasonable location. Was the worry over losing New Spain more about locals demanding more autonomy or a future war with Great Britain or some other power taking control? In the latter situation it seems like Havana was no more helpful than St. Augustine given the British navy's might.

Regarding the German situation more land for Prussia leads to more hatred from the other major German players, i.e. Bavaria and Austria. Thus Prussia would have it slightly more harder to "force" a diplomatic German unification.

Was strong popular support not one of the major causes of the unification though? Governments can and have been overthrown in history. A strong local movement could be a deciding factor, regardless of the resentment of Prussian hegemony by local royalty and the like in my mind.

Not quite. They proved themselves to be a power, but not of first order. Prussia only became great power with unification of Germany.

They did, however, proven themselves to be something you need to take into account when doing things in Germany

Eh. I mispoke, it was late when I typed this. But yes, you're right of course.

Russia doing well in war is debatable. Russian troubles were logistics and power projction. while they could field large army an move it into central europe it was problematic maintaining it there, depending on their own shoddy logistics or support from allies which was reluctant at best. Plus theywere seldom in a hurry to actually get anywhere, something that caused all sets of troubles for either set of allies.

They certainly weren't losing the war when they stopped though. Perhaps it was a struggle, but they weren't at a breaking point. Right? Or am I being too generous/ignorant?

Overall I think Prussia got what it could.7YW was a close run thing for them and the mere act of survival and retaining territory is a huge victory. I think getting (bits of) Saxony could happen but I don't think others would go for it.

But not Austrian Silesia?



I appreciate your responses! My knowledge is shoddy at best.

 

[aktarian]

They certainly weren't losing the war when they stopped though. Perhaps it was a struggle, but they weren't at a breaking point. Right? Or am I being too generous/ignorant?

They weren't loosing, true, but they weren't winning either. Prussian victory over russia could at best make them withdraw and make white peace.

But not Austrian Silesia?

Not sure how much of it Prussia actually held at the end but demanding austrian territory would make austria less willing to make peace and in the end peace was what Prussia desperatly needed.

IMO saxony is better case as Prussia actually held it and incorporated it into their system, both finacialy and military.

 

[Helios Ra]

They weren't loosing, true, but they weren't winning either. Prussian victory over russia could at best make them withdraw and make white peace.

I suppose so. Russia wouldn't really have anythig to give Prussia besides maybe reparations anyway.

Not sure how much of it Prussia actually held at the end but demanding austrian territory would make austria less willing to make peace and in the end peace was what Prussia desperatly needed.

IMO saxony is better case as Prussia actually held it and incorporated it into their system, both finacialy and military.

Fair enough. An outright annexation of Saxony would be over the line I suppose?

 

[Valdemar II]

I suppose so. Russia wouldn't really have anythig to give Prussia besides maybe reparations anyway.




Fair enough. An outright annexation of Saxony would be over the line I suppose?

Oh yes, personal I think the fact that Prussia lost nothing was a unbelievable victory. The best way to imagine are if after FDR, and Truman had made peace with Hitler, let Germany keep its 1941 borders and joined the German side, that's how unbelievable the result of the 7YW was.

 

[Helios Ra]

Oh yes, personal I think the fact that Prussia lost nothing was a unbelievable victory. The best way to imagine are if after FDR, and Truman had made peace with Hitler, let Germany keep its 1941 borders and joined the German side, that's how unbelievable the result of the 7YW was.

Keeping with that metaphor, Mussolini would then proceed to oppose the Germans in the future. I guess.

I'm by no means denying that Prussia not losing Silesia and whatnot wasn't an enormous stroke of luck and a brilliant victory, but I can't help but wonder if it could push its luck just a little more.

 

[aktarian]

Keeping with that metaphor, Mussolini would then proceed to oppose the Germans in the future. I guess.

I'm by no means denying that Prussia not losing Silesia and whatnot wasn't an enormous stroke of luck and a brilliant victory, but I can't help but wonder if it could push its luck just a little more.

The thing is that war end ended in exchausted stalemate for all (except Russia). Which means that nobody could force anybody to give up territory becasuenobody achieved decissive victory.

If you wish to see Prussia expand you need early POD. Prussians do better faster and achieve series of decissive victories early on. Smash France to keep them away.Do same to Russia (I don't consider Zorndorf as Prussian victory) or at least keep them away from east Prussia (maybe Elizabeth dies sooner and Peter III withdraws from war while managing to hold on to the throne long enough to keep Russia out of the war). Then inflict series of defeats on Austria. And do it fast before Prussia looses well trained infantry in large numbers, even Prussian victories tended to be bloody affairs and took a toll on their trained troops.

 

[Helios Ra]

The thing is that war end ended in exchausted stalemate for all (except Russia). Which means that nobody could force anybody to give up territory becasuenobody achieved decissive victory.

If you wish to see Prussia expand you need early POD. Prussians do better faster and achieve series of decissive victories early on. Smash France to keep them away.Do same to Russia (I don't consider Zorndorf as Prussian victory) or at least keep them away from east Prussia (maybe Elizabeth dies sooner and Peter III withdraws from war while managing to hold on to the throne long enough to keep Russia out of the war). Then inflict series of defeats on Austria. And do it fast before Prussia looses well trained infantry in large numbers, even Prussian victories tended to be bloody affairs and took a toll on their trained troops.

Hum. I suppose that is my only option in this case. Thanks for your help on the matter.