ALTERNATE NOTIONS (Miscellaneous Thread for ‘Books and Media’

[Tiro]

Having learned enough about LIBERATING ALASKA to be sorry that it’s not available for purchase through kindle, it’s interesting to wonder what the ‘break point’ of this timeline might be - I suspect that the most ‘Turtledove’ possibility would be the successful assassination of Secretary of State Seward alongside Abraham Lincoln in 1865 (In fact an associate of John Wilkes Booth managed to knife Seward several times despite the efforts of his bodyguards: it’s not hard to imagine a timeline where the Secretary of State failed to survive the attack).

While it’s open to question whether or not Seward’s absence would have scuppered the Alaska Purchase, the fact that particular event was nicknamed “Seward’s Folly” makes it fair enough to suggest that it MIGHT have.

I wonder what other effects the loss of the Secretary of State might have had on US and world history.

 

[Tiro]

For some reason the name 'US Rifle Corps' remains stuck in my mind as name for some Alternate History unit of green-jackets (probably by analogy with the United States Marine Corps and inspired by the British Armies' Kings Royal Rifle Corps): amusingly, I tend to imagine this unit in connection with the United States of ATLANTIS rather than the United States of America.

Interestingly, the United States Army regulations mention uniforms for rifle regiments as late as 1851 (or rather specify green piping and pompoms for rifle units), but I've not been able to discover if there were any rifle units actually serving with the Regular Army after the War of 1812 (though the US Sharpshooters of the American Civil War should arguably be counted as such and they wore rifle green while those uniforms lasted).

Note that in this case 'Corps' is used in the original sense of 'formed and trained body of men' rather than a full-blown Army Corps - I'm imagining an elite unit of light infantry, but not one large enough to fight a major battle or a good-sized war all on it's own.

 

[Tiro]

For some reason I find the fact that, between the Seven Years War and the close of the American War of Independence, there was an East Florida and a West Florida under British governance (which in fact remained Loyalist throughout the Revolution): this may partly be due to the curious coincidence of Canada having been divided into ‘Canada East’ and ‘Canada West’ at one point.

I wonder if there’s a timeline out there in the Multiverse with a ‘Dominion of Florida’?

 

[Tiro]

Having just finished reading Harry Turtledove's MUST AND SHALL, one can only say that this is an intriguing setting in search of an excellent story - while the short story we get is acceptable, 'The clock is ticking' nature of the plot, the faceless nature of the opposition and the rather abrupt conclusion make it all feel somewhat perfunctory (Despite some fairly tasty "New Orleans on a Bad Day" atmosphere): It certainly doesn't help that the lead characters are more than a little unsympathetic (One might argue that the story of the informers, few of whom make it out of this tale alive, would be rather more interesting than that of the agents who employ them).

Also, 'Federal Bureau of Suppression' maybe leans a bit hard on 'EVIL FBI' for my taste ('Federal Bureau of Security' or 'Federal Security Bureau' might be a bit less blunt).


Still, the notion of a timeline where the Union won the Civil War, where the Radical Republicans won out in the Reconstruction and the Southern States still went to Hell in a hand-basket is rather intriguing (Not least as a foil to the much better-known SOUTHERN VICTORY novels): I'd be interested in seeing more stories from this timeline, especially if they touched upon the 'Thanksgiving Rebellion' briefly mentioned as having occurred during the First World War (If nothing else, it would be interesting to see how the United States handled something very like the Easter Rising of our timeline - also, one wonders who would be in charge of the US Government in a timeline where Thomas Woodrow Wilson would be rather less electable).

Here's a thought: what if the Thanksgiving Rebellion fell in AD 1916, a week or two after the Presidential Elections of that year?

 

[Tiro]

Learning that Canada presently comprises thirteen provinces and territories somehow makes that nation sound almost like an Alternate History brought to life - a shadow of what might have been (or even the ghost of British North America) brought in to haunt the former Thirteen Colonies from their northern frontier.

Sometimes Real Life can sound full of literary conceits!

 

[Tiro]

You know, thinking over MUST AND SHALL it has occurred to me that few settings are more likely to support a Gordon McSweeney Presidency than this gleeful outpost of post-war occupation with Extreme Prejudice...

 

[Tiro]

^^ I'm reasonably sure this map could do with a bit of tweaking (That bizarre streak from the 'First People's Nation' across Manitoba and Ontario seems especially egregious) but since it's attached to a setting that contains 'Washington, Canada' in addition to retaining a pre-World War II technology level into the late 1980s* I have still been persuaded to take an interest. ^^

*Which makes me think of BATMAN (1989) and BATMAN: THE ANIMATED SERIES, never a bad thing.


Having decided to try puzzling out some population figures for the various polities depicted above, I therefore consulted Wikipedia (This is for my own amusement, not Science) and decided to employ population figures for the several states (and Canada) from as close to AD 1960 as possible - on the understanding that this was as quick & reasonable a way as any to puzzle out population increase in a world less advanced (and a North America more violently fractious) than our own.

I may post more detailed breakdowns at a later date - if anyone more expert than myself at the noble art of Faking Up Stats wants to have a shot, please feel free to share your thoughts.


Russian Amerika - 551,000


'New Spain' - 42,931,000


British Canada - 9,798,000


French Canada 'New France' - 7,794,000


Republic of California - 17,564,000


Deseret - 1,059,000


First People's Nation - 9,315,000


Republic of Texas - 13,038,000


Confederate States of America - 55,284,000 (of which 15,313,000 Black)


United States of America - 90,967,000.

 

[Tiro]

Finally, having stumbled onto the 'Jesusland' parody map, I have some thoughts:-

- It deeply, deeply amuses me to imagine the Blue States joining Canada as a Commonwealth Realm (leaving Revolutionary War historians and the entire city of Boston mortally embarrassed* for as long as it takes all these shiny new Canadians to outnumber their fellow countrymen into becoming a Commonwealth Republic**).

*"We had a war about this!" "That was a dozen wars ago, you have to pick your battles!" "I pick Lexington, Concord and Bunker Hill!"

**In which His Majesty the King is STILL Head of the Commonwealth, but don't tell the really hardcore Yankees that (Oh, and those wondering why Philadelphia doesn't share Boston's rage? That would probably because they don't want to bring up the embarrassing fact that Philadelphia was occupied by Crown Forces during the War of Independence and signally failed to throw them out).


- I'd bet this map would be a Perfect setting for some parody of THE HANDMAID'S TALE (More the somewhat-misguided 'Erotic Thriller' starring the late Natasha Richardson than the TV series: I like living).


- My favourite version of the Jesusland map is unquestionably the one where Alberta has become one with the 'Red' states, because (A) It amuses me to imagine Canadian representatives making heartfelt declarations of loss at their former countrymen's departure ... only to scream "California, here we come!" as soon as the cameras turn off
(B) This map makes it look as though 'Jesusland' is giving outer space The Finger, which seems appropriate.

Now I just need to puzzle out which American political caricaturists would make the Best source of inspiration for the art style of a cartoon series set in the 'Jesusland' timeline.

 

[Kloka]

Quick and dirty idea for a sequel to Stephen Baxter’s Prospero One short story:

10 years later,Geoff Lighthill is selected for a mission to deploy a Skynet satellite from the Space Shuttle. Rory Gough is his backup.

 

[Tiro]

The following article - based on the ideas of Ramscoop Raider, for whose patient assistance I offer my thanks and my heartiest gratitude - presents a possible breakdown of the Army of the Confederate States of America/Timeline-191 in the earliest days of the First Great War, as supported by a population of 33,370,191 millions* subject to a Conscription Act and a system comparable to that of France.

*Of which approximately 1/3 Confederate coloured.


These population numbers suggest a possible total of 290 Infantry regiments, 110 Cavalry regiments and 50 Artillery regiments (Not counting majority non-white support elements, which may or may not comprise separate troop formations).

Those units would be further divided into:-


First Line Troops (Regular Army): ready at command

110 Infantry regiments, 75 Cavalry regiments, 50 Artillery regiments


This represents the 1st-110th C.S. Infantry regiments, the 1st-75th C.S. Cavalry regiments and the 1st-50th C.S. Artillery regiments.



Second Line Troops (Regular Army reserves + State Volunteer Regiments): ready within 30-45 days of mobilisation

100 Infantry Regiments, 25 Cavalry Regiments

This represents the 111th-161st C.S. Infantry Regiments and the 76th-88th C.S. Cavalry Regiments, as well as:-


- 1st & 2nd South Carolina Volunteer Infantry, 1st South Carolina Volunteer Cavalry

- 1st & 2nd Mississippi Volunteer Infantry, 1st Mississippi Volunteer Cavalry

- 1st Florida Volunteer Infantry

- 1st-3rd Alabama Volunteer Infantry, 1st Alabama Volunteer Cavalry

- 1st-4th Georgia Volunteer Infantry, 1st Georgia Volunteer Cavalry

- 1st & 2nd Louisiana Volunteer Infantry, 1st Louisiana Volunteer Cavalry

- 1st-8th Texas Volunteer Infantry, 1st & 2nd Texas Volunteer Cavalry

- 1st-3rd Virginia Volunteer Infantry, 1st Virginia Volunteer Cavalry

- 1st-3rd Arkansas Volunteer Infantry, 1st Arkansas Volunteer Cavalry

- 1st-4th Tennessee Volunteer Infantry, 1st Tennessee Volunteer Cavalry

- 1st-4th North Carolina Volunteer Infantry, 1st North Carolina Volunteer Cavalry

- 1st-5th Kentucky Volunteer Infantry, 1st Kentucky Volunteer Cavalry

- 1st-5th Cuba Volunteer Cavalry, 1st Cuba Volunteer Cavalry

- 1st Chihuahua Volunteer Infantry

- 1st Sonora Volunteer Infantry

- 1st & 2nd Infantry Regiments, Army of Sequoyah



Third Line Troops (State Troops): Ready within 60-120 days of mobilisation

80 Infantry Regiments, 10 Cavalry Regiments

This represents:-


- 3 & 4th South Carolina Infantry

- 3rd-5th Mississippi Infantry

- 2nd & 3rd Florida Infantry, 1st Florida Cavalry

- 4th-8th Alabama Infantry

- 5th-9th Georgia Infantry, 2nd Georgia Cavalry

- 3rd-6th Louisiana Infantry, 2nd Louisiana Cavalry

- 9th-20th Texas Infantry, 3 & 4th Texas Cavalry

- 4th-10th Virginia Infantry, 2nd Virginia Cavalry

- 4th-8th Arkansas Infantry

- 5th-11th Tennessee Infantry, 2nd Tennessee Cavalry

- 5th-10th North Carolina Infantry, 2nd North Carolina Cavalry

- 6th-13th Kentucky Infantry, 2nd Kentucky Cavalry

- 6th-12th Cuba Infantry, 2nd Cuba Cavalry

- 2nd & 3rd Chihuahua Infantry

- 2nd Sonora Infantry

- 3rd-7th Infantry Regiments, Army of Sequoyah

 

[Tiro]

A few notes to keep in mind:-

- In this context a 'Volunteer' Regiment is a State Regiment that can be called on to serve outside it's home state by the central government and which the States concerned might actually allow to leave their boundaries without too much of a faction fight on the floor of the Confederate Congress: deployment of non-Volunteer State regiments is generally regarded as the sole prerogative of the States in question (and getting them deployed them outside their home states usually requires a good deal of glad-handing, wheel-greasing and sundry fuss).


- Looking over the list of Confederate regiments from the American Civil War of our own timeline suggests that I may have misnamed the Sequoyah regiments (which are likely to be named for the 'Civilised Tribes' they represent), but I have used the names above for the sake of simplicity and clarity.


- For the same reason I have numbered the State Regiments sequentially, though it seems likely that the numbering of regiments might well get much more complicated in Real Life (With some states numbering sequentially, others restarting the count for the non-Volunteer State Regiments - so one might have the 1st Texas Volunteer Infantry and the 1st Texas Infantry to confuse things).


- Note that the Regular Army regiments of the second echelon, as reservists, would be mustered in throughout the several states of the Confederacy: I may post a breakdown of these regiments by state at some point (Though their numbers would be roughly the same as those of the State Volunteer regiments).


- I am planning to make at least one further post estimating the number of Confederate Army corps and divisions.

 

[Tiro]

Throughout the article above, I have assumed that State Regiments (and possibly the Regular Army reserve regiments in each State) take precedence based on the order in which States were admitted to the Confederacy, in more or less the following order:-

- South Carolina

- Mississippi

- Florida

- Alabama

- Georgia

- Louisiana

- Texas

- Virginia

- Arkansas

- Tennessee

- North Carolina

- Kentucky

- Cuba

- Sonora

- Chihuahua

- Sequoyah

 

[Kloka]

Was there a novel,or maybe a timeline here,where Scott Carpenter stayed on as an astronaut and later flew another mission? I feel like I read one at some point.

 

[Kloka]

Voyage question for @Ry01tank or anyone else on this forum who read Voyage:

After his near assassination,how long did JFK serve in office? Was it a quick resignation (say just after he got back to DC) or did he just not run for re-election in ‘64?

 

[Ry01tank]

doesn't mention his presidency on the post assassination to nixon years

i would assume he would serve the remainder of his term and then resign
50/50 he would then run again or resign

if he stays, i can see him stepping aside for LBJ as the vice president in 64, as JFK ITTL was bound to a wheelchair, basically, he would keep his public persona while LBJ deals with the shit
But the problem is that ITTL the us still is involved with Vietnam, which Kennedy will not support, so it is more likely he stepped down or let LBJ do his own thing while JFK is Vice

Considering he becomes the champion for space, I think he would leave politics and promote space, leaving LBJ free to have a more capable Vice president

sorry i haven't been posting at all, my life (college and work) has become crazy since December)

 

[Tiro]

I’ve just finished reading Mr Edgar Rice Burroughs’ BEYOND THIRTY and one cannot possibly complain about it’s entertainment value: if nothing else it’s deeply amusing to read this novella with a suspicion that it is (In-universe) pure propaganda written by a rather callow young officer who believes every word of it.


In brief this is a story, written in AD 1916, that shows a world in which all contact between the Western and Eastern Hemispheres was severed during the First World War - a situation that stood for two hundred years or so, on Pain of Death, until Our Hero (A very young naval officer of the Pan-American government established at some point during that period) finds himself on the wrong side of dividing line between East and West, then somehow keeps deeper and deeper into Trouble until he somehow comes out the other side.

I shan’t spoil the plot any further (It deserves to be encountered with an open mind) but this story is roughly as plausible as the plot of the average FALLOUT game and yet, like those games, manages to smuggle some sensible and rather dark and philosophical points in with all that popcorn movie entertainment.

Even if it STILL reads like a work of in-universe All-American propaganda!