AHC/WI: WMDs used in Vietnam
- Thread starter Alternate History Geek
- Start date
Define WMDs.
If you're talking about the US unloading a can of sunshine on Hanoi, then you're possibly entering Protect and Survive territory.
Besides, there were plenty of WMDs used in Vietnam anyway, from Agent Orange to the B-52.
If you're talking about the US unloading a can of sunshine on Hanoi, then you're possibly entering Protect and Survive territory.
Besides, there were plenty of WMDs used in Vietnam anyway, from Agent Orange to the B-52.
I was thinking dedicated chemical weapons and/or tactical nukes. One idea: could nukes have been used to clear paths through the jungle and divide it up into sections so as to isolate the VC and more easily destroy them?
Orville_third
Banned
There are rumors it could have been.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Tailwind
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Tailwind
Are you talking about the U.S. using biological weapons like weaponized virally altered Smallpox or Anthrax on the North?
The U.S. if it is going to resort to WMD's will go tactical with nuclear weapons as Nixon wanted in the 50s. The minor use of chemical weapons is certainly possible. The U.S. using bioweapons isn't very likely unless LBJ or Nixon really believes the North with say Chinese help has done so against our troops.
The U.S. if it is going to resort to WMD's will go tactical with nuclear weapons as Nixon wanted in the 50s. The minor use of chemical weapons is certainly possible. The U.S. using bioweapons isn't very likely unless LBJ or Nixon really believes the North with say Chinese help has done so against our troops.
Last edited:
katchen
Banned
Here is the story of the use of Sarin gas in Vietnam. Retired Admiral Moorer claims that he authorized the use of Sarin on US military defectors (traitors who actually went over to the Viet Cong). Given that lethal gas was one of the forms of execution in use in the US at the time, I suppose if there is any justification for the use of Sarin in a US war theatre, this would be it. 
Of course the US government denied it all and Admiral Singlaub forced CNN to retract the story after it aired.
[sixties-l] Vietnam defectors were targeted for elimination
From: radman (resist@best.com)
Date: Tue Jun 27 2000 - 00:28:15 CUT
Next message: Michael Garrison: "[sixties-l] the flag and the pledge"
============================================
From: <http://www.copvcia.com/sarin_gas_confirmed.htm>
1200 HRS - JUNE 24, 2000
MOORER DEPOSITION IN "TAILWIND" SUITS CONFIRMS ALLEGATIONS
OF SARIN USE AGAINST VIETNAM DEFECTORS, POWS
-- INCRIMINATES CIA, KISSINGER
"From The Wilderness" has obtained the January 17 deposition of retired
Joint Chiefs Chairman, Admiral Thomas Moorer taken in connection with a
series of civil suits filed in the aftermath of 1997 and 1998 CNN reports
relating to a series of 1970 CIA directed missions known as "Tailwind."
Those missions, as originally, and apparently accurately, reported by CNN
involved the use of the poison nerve gas Sarin to kill American defectors in
Laos. The Moorer deposition not only confirms all of the aspects of the
original CNN broadcast, it also suggests that former CNN Producers April
Oliver and Jack Smith may have actually understated the extent of Sarin Gas
use by U.S. forces under CIA control during the Vietnam war.
[Complete text of Moorer deposition is linked from this article posted at
http://www.copvcia.com/sarin_gas_confirmed.htm ]
On June 7, 1998 CNN aired the "Tailwind" report as a feature news segment on
their show "Newsstand." Reported by CNN veteran Peter Arnett, the stories
stated that the CIA connected Studies and Observations Group (SOG), then
commanded by CIA veteran and Army General John Singlaub, had used the lethal
gas during covert operations into Laos. In particular, the "Tailwind" story
reported that American defectors were the intended targets of the attacks.
The Tailwind report came eight months after an initial CNN "Impact" report
(also produced by Oliver) that featured extensive, lengthy, and highly
consistent on-camera quotes from Singlaub regarding similar and related
missions during the period. The stories established that the United States
had committed acts during the Vietnam era - specifically the use of lethal
nerve gas - that would be considered war crimes under current international
law. Indeed, the United States has repeatedly bombed civilian and military
targets in Iraq in retaliation for Sadam Hussein's use of the exact same
tactics.
In the wake of the June 1998 CNN "Tailwind" story Oliver was sacrificed,
crucified, tarred, feathered and fired after enormous pressure was brought
to bear on the network and "TIME" magazine by the likes of Henry Kissinger
and former Joint Chiefs Chairman Colin Powell. Ted Turner's stock values
were saved. Singlaub subsequently sued both Oliver and the network for
defamation and slander. He also demanded a public apology and exoneration.
Both Singlaub and Moorer denied that they had used the gas or brought it any
closer to Southeast Asian operations than the island of Okinawa. Yet,
according to admissions made by Moorer near the end of the deposition, as
much as 300 pounds of the gas were stored at a secret CIA controlled Thai
air/operations base called Nakhorn Phanom or NKP.
Relying upon several exhibits including official memoranda from the Joint
Chiefs bearing classified notations approved by Moorer and meticulously
detailed contemporaneous notes from Oliver describing her interviews with
both Moorer and Singlaub, Oliver's attorney Roger Simmons secured a basic
admission from Moorer, who served as Joint Chief's Chairman under Richard
Nixon, that the Tailwind missions into Laos were controlled by Henry
Kissinger and the CIA, not the Pentagon. This then invalidated Moorer's
original strident assertions that he had controlled SOG missions as JCS
Chair and had never authorized the use of Sarin gas or allowed it into the
area of operations.
Later in the deposition, while reading notes taken by Oliver during her
seven hours of interviews with Moorer and later placed in CNN files, Simmons
elicited agreement from Moorer that he had made statements to Oliver, and
not disputed her findings that:
* Military staff near the White House and the National Security Council
routinely stole documents from Henry Kissinger's briefcase so that they
could find out what was really going on,
* As many as twenty U.S. defectors were targeted for elimination by Special
Forces troops assigned to SOG in the Tailwind mission into the Savan region
of Laos in 1970,
* Sarin gas was employed in the mission,
* The mission was successful,
* Defectors were a routine "high priority" for execution on all SOG missions
inside Laos,
* As many as 30 A1E Skyraider pilots at NKP had planes equipped to dispense
Sarin gas and that they had authorization to do so on both support and
search and rescue missions inside Laos,
* Sarin was routinely used in extractions of downed aircrews in hostile
conditions, and that
* It had been an option for pilots unable to rescue downed US aircrews in
Laos before nightfall to dispense Sarin gas on the U.S. aircrews in order to
kill them and prevent them from falling into "enemy" hands.
FTW routinely communicates with several Special Forces and CIA veterans of
the era. We cannot help but note that these particular areas of Laos were
heavily occupied by CIA personnel and CIA mercenaries including Montangard
and Hmong tribesmen actively involved in the heroin trade on CIA's behalf
and with CIA protection. In a previous issue of FTW (7/98) we reported at
length how and why we believed that evidence existed that CIA ordered the
deaths of American POWs to prevent their repatriation and eventual
disclosure of CIA criminal activities.
When FTW first learned that the Tailwind cases had been settled we also
heard something else, utter silence from the allegedly offended party who
screamed bloody murder when the stories first aired - John Singlaub. That
suggested to us that April Oliver might have emerged victorious. Inasmuch as
additional public vindication was one of the main objectives sought by
Singlaub when he sued Oliver, the fact that the settlements deny him that
objective only increased our suspicions. Reading the text of Moorer's
deposition then convinced us.
Following the Tailwind stories I had the opportunity to meet with Oliver
several times in person and was a guest on a radio talk show program with
her. I found her documentation to be meticulous and unassailable. One of the
reasons for this was that, as she alleged in her counter suit against both
Singlaub and CNN, Singlaub himself had been a confidential source for the
story originally. He had violated that confidentiality agreement when he
initiated suits against her and CNN. Also, Oliver stated that she had
submitted the entire script of the Tailwind segment to Moorer and secured
his approval of the script before the broadcast. Moorer admitted to that
meeting.
Moorer's repeated insistence under oath that John Singlaub never lied and
that anything he said could always be totally trusted was put to the test
when Oliver's attorney confronted Moorer with his own confirmation of
statements made by Singlaub that defectors were a high priority target. A
number of people present in the room, including Singlaub, Singlaub's
attorney and what FTW took to be a CIA handler for Moorer named Rudi
Gresham, appeared to be caught off-guard by the accurate detail contained in
contemporaneous notes taken by Oliver during her interviews with both Moorer
and Singlaub. Those notes had been stored, apparently unnoticed, in CNN
files after the broadcast.
Also at issue in the suits was CNN's questionable act of hiring so-called
"First Amendment Champion," attorney Floyd Abrams to represent Oliver
without advising her that he was also representing the network. CNN rushed
into initial agreements that left Oliver and associates twisting in the
breeze while saving Ted Turner's bacon in the wake of his fawning public
apology for a crime his vaunted network never really committed in the first
place. CNN regularly uses military satellites for live news feeds and a
source inside CNN advised us that the military had threatened to pull the
plug if Turner did not kill the stories.
FTW is aware of other cases like that of Los Angeles air freight contractor
Irwin Rautenberg who have won suits against the government and the CIA for
illegal activities wherein the essential ingredient for settlement was that
the victor remain absolutely silent about the victory. The basic rule would
be something like, "You can fight City Hall but no one can ever know that
you won because then everyone would do it."
Coverage of the settlements of the lawsuits has apparently been limited to
brief stories in the Associated Press and TV Guide. FTW has contacted Oliver
on several occasions but she has steadfastly refused to discuss or even hint
at the nature of the settlements. However, she has told FTW that her
personal life is fine and that - absolutely apart from the settlements - she
and her husband have just purchased a new car and are have placed a contract
on a six bedroom, five bathroom house in Bethesda, Maryland where her
daughter will attend public school.
Having been a guest in April's current home I can only state that the Oliver
family has apparently not suffered as a result of the settlement. Oliver
has not disclosed her future plans but FTW wishes her and her family all the
best.
Ms Oliver adds that she unequivocally and wholeheartedly stands by her
original stories - as she produced them.
Michael C. Ruppert
Publisher/Editor
From The Wilderness
(c) COPYRIGHT 2000. FROM THE WILDERNESS PUBLICATIONS, WWW.COPVCIA.COM
WWW.SUPPRESSEDWRITERS.COM -
ALL RIGHTS RESERVED. 818-788-8791
Of course the US government denied it all and Admiral Singlaub forced CNN to retract the story after it aired.
[sixties-l] Vietnam defectors were targeted for elimination
From: radman (resist@best.com)
Date: Tue Jun 27 2000 - 00:28:15 CUT
Next message: Michael Garrison: "[sixties-l] the flag and the pledge"
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============================================
From: <http://www.copvcia.com/sarin_gas_confirmed.htm>
1200 HRS - JUNE 24, 2000
MOORER DEPOSITION IN "TAILWIND" SUITS CONFIRMS ALLEGATIONS
OF SARIN USE AGAINST VIETNAM DEFECTORS, POWS
-- INCRIMINATES CIA, KISSINGER
"From The Wilderness" has obtained the January 17 deposition of retired
Joint Chiefs Chairman, Admiral Thomas Moorer taken in connection with a
series of civil suits filed in the aftermath of 1997 and 1998 CNN reports
relating to a series of 1970 CIA directed missions known as "Tailwind."
Those missions, as originally, and apparently accurately, reported by CNN
involved the use of the poison nerve gas Sarin to kill American defectors in
Laos. The Moorer deposition not only confirms all of the aspects of the
original CNN broadcast, it also suggests that former CNN Producers April
Oliver and Jack Smith may have actually understated the extent of Sarin Gas
use by U.S. forces under CIA control during the Vietnam war.
[Complete text of Moorer deposition is linked from this article posted at
http://www.copvcia.com/sarin_gas_confirmed.htm ]
On June 7, 1998 CNN aired the "Tailwind" report as a feature news segment on
their show "Newsstand." Reported by CNN veteran Peter Arnett, the stories
stated that the CIA connected Studies and Observations Group (SOG), then
commanded by CIA veteran and Army General John Singlaub, had used the lethal
gas during covert operations into Laos. In particular, the "Tailwind" story
reported that American defectors were the intended targets of the attacks.
The Tailwind report came eight months after an initial CNN "Impact" report
(also produced by Oliver) that featured extensive, lengthy, and highly
consistent on-camera quotes from Singlaub regarding similar and related
missions during the period. The stories established that the United States
had committed acts during the Vietnam era - specifically the use of lethal
nerve gas - that would be considered war crimes under current international
law. Indeed, the United States has repeatedly bombed civilian and military
targets in Iraq in retaliation for Sadam Hussein's use of the exact same
tactics.
In the wake of the June 1998 CNN "Tailwind" story Oliver was sacrificed,
crucified, tarred, feathered and fired after enormous pressure was brought
to bear on the network and "TIME" magazine by the likes of Henry Kissinger
and former Joint Chiefs Chairman Colin Powell. Ted Turner's stock values
were saved. Singlaub subsequently sued both Oliver and the network for
defamation and slander. He also demanded a public apology and exoneration.
Both Singlaub and Moorer denied that they had used the gas or brought it any
closer to Southeast Asian operations than the island of Okinawa. Yet,
according to admissions made by Moorer near the end of the deposition, as
much as 300 pounds of the gas were stored at a secret CIA controlled Thai
air/operations base called Nakhorn Phanom or NKP.
Relying upon several exhibits including official memoranda from the Joint
Chiefs bearing classified notations approved by Moorer and meticulously
detailed contemporaneous notes from Oliver describing her interviews with
both Moorer and Singlaub, Oliver's attorney Roger Simmons secured a basic
admission from Moorer, who served as Joint Chief's Chairman under Richard
Nixon, that the Tailwind missions into Laos were controlled by Henry
Kissinger and the CIA, not the Pentagon. This then invalidated Moorer's
original strident assertions that he had controlled SOG missions as JCS
Chair and had never authorized the use of Sarin gas or allowed it into the
area of operations.
Later in the deposition, while reading notes taken by Oliver during her
seven hours of interviews with Moorer and later placed in CNN files, Simmons
elicited agreement from Moorer that he had made statements to Oliver, and
not disputed her findings that:
* Military staff near the White House and the National Security Council
routinely stole documents from Henry Kissinger's briefcase so that they
could find out what was really going on,
* As many as twenty U.S. defectors were targeted for elimination by Special
Forces troops assigned to SOG in the Tailwind mission into the Savan region
of Laos in 1970,
* Sarin gas was employed in the mission,
* The mission was successful,
* Defectors were a routine "high priority" for execution on all SOG missions
inside Laos,
* As many as 30 A1E Skyraider pilots at NKP had planes equipped to dispense
Sarin gas and that they had authorization to do so on both support and
search and rescue missions inside Laos,
* Sarin was routinely used in extractions of downed aircrews in hostile
conditions, and that
* It had been an option for pilots unable to rescue downed US aircrews in
Laos before nightfall to dispense Sarin gas on the U.S. aircrews in order to
kill them and prevent them from falling into "enemy" hands.
FTW routinely communicates with several Special Forces and CIA veterans of
the era. We cannot help but note that these particular areas of Laos were
heavily occupied by CIA personnel and CIA mercenaries including Montangard
and Hmong tribesmen actively involved in the heroin trade on CIA's behalf
and with CIA protection. In a previous issue of FTW (7/98) we reported at
length how and why we believed that evidence existed that CIA ordered the
deaths of American POWs to prevent their repatriation and eventual
disclosure of CIA criminal activities.
When FTW first learned that the Tailwind cases had been settled we also
heard something else, utter silence from the allegedly offended party who
screamed bloody murder when the stories first aired - John Singlaub. That
suggested to us that April Oliver might have emerged victorious. Inasmuch as
additional public vindication was one of the main objectives sought by
Singlaub when he sued Oliver, the fact that the settlements deny him that
objective only increased our suspicions. Reading the text of Moorer's
deposition then convinced us.
Following the Tailwind stories I had the opportunity to meet with Oliver
several times in person and was a guest on a radio talk show program with
her. I found her documentation to be meticulous and unassailable. One of the
reasons for this was that, as she alleged in her counter suit against both
Singlaub and CNN, Singlaub himself had been a confidential source for the
story originally. He had violated that confidentiality agreement when he
initiated suits against her and CNN. Also, Oliver stated that she had
submitted the entire script of the Tailwind segment to Moorer and secured
his approval of the script before the broadcast. Moorer admitted to that
meeting.
Moorer's repeated insistence under oath that John Singlaub never lied and
that anything he said could always be totally trusted was put to the test
when Oliver's attorney confronted Moorer with his own confirmation of
statements made by Singlaub that defectors were a high priority target. A
number of people present in the room, including Singlaub, Singlaub's
attorney and what FTW took to be a CIA handler for Moorer named Rudi
Gresham, appeared to be caught off-guard by the accurate detail contained in
contemporaneous notes taken by Oliver during her interviews with both Moorer
and Singlaub. Those notes had been stored, apparently unnoticed, in CNN
files after the broadcast.
Also at issue in the suits was CNN's questionable act of hiring so-called
"First Amendment Champion," attorney Floyd Abrams to represent Oliver
without advising her that he was also representing the network. CNN rushed
into initial agreements that left Oliver and associates twisting in the
breeze while saving Ted Turner's bacon in the wake of his fawning public
apology for a crime his vaunted network never really committed in the first
place. CNN regularly uses military satellites for live news feeds and a
source inside CNN advised us that the military had threatened to pull the
plug if Turner did not kill the stories.
FTW is aware of other cases like that of Los Angeles air freight contractor
Irwin Rautenberg who have won suits against the government and the CIA for
illegal activities wherein the essential ingredient for settlement was that
the victor remain absolutely silent about the victory. The basic rule would
be something like, "You can fight City Hall but no one can ever know that
you won because then everyone would do it."
Coverage of the settlements of the lawsuits has apparently been limited to
brief stories in the Associated Press and TV Guide. FTW has contacted Oliver
on several occasions but she has steadfastly refused to discuss or even hint
at the nature of the settlements. However, she has told FTW that her
personal life is fine and that - absolutely apart from the settlements - she
and her husband have just purchased a new car and are have placed a contract
on a six bedroom, five bathroom house in Bethesda, Maryland where her
daughter will attend public school.
Having been a guest in April's current home I can only state that the Oliver
family has apparently not suffered as a result of the settlement. Oliver
has not disclosed her future plans but FTW wishes her and her family all the
best.
Ms Oliver adds that she unequivocally and wholeheartedly stands by her
original stories - as she produced them.
Michael C. Ruppert
Publisher/Editor
From The Wilderness
(c) COPYRIGHT 2000. FROM THE WILDERNESS PUBLICATIONS, WWW.COPVCIA.COM
WWW.SUPPRESSEDWRITERS.COM -
ALL RIGHTS RESERVED. 818-788-8791
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DON'T quote whole articles like that.
Also, the story of "Operation Tailwind" was a hoax written up to sell papers.
katchen
Banned
I do not believe that Tailwind was a hoax, as angry as veterans groups were about it at the time But that's only my opinion. . The context makes a great deal of sense We're not talking here about use solely on Viet Cong. We're talking about the use of Sarin on American renegades who went over to the Viet Cong and were very difficult to kill any other way. (And of course the last thing that the military wanted news correspondants talking about was US troops going over to the V.C. side) And please also bear in mind that the US had not yet ratified the Geneva Convention against chemical warfare. I believe Congress did so somewhere around the Mid 1970s.
. That is why I forwarded the entire article, so that listmembers can read all the details and make up their minds themselves about Tailwind's veracity. Because this IS a highly controversial question Admiral Moorer did give the interview that he gave, even if he was living in a nursing home at the time. And he certainly did not appear to be suffering from dementia in that interview.
And Ret. Gen. Singlaub, who spearheaded the backlash against the Tailwind disclosure (which took place as the Clinton Administration Scandals were reaching a crescendo) WAS President Reagan's administrative liason for Iran-Contra, was a founding member of the CIA back in the 1940s and was also a founder according to his Wikipedia biography, of the US chapter of the World Anti-Communist League. And he helped prevent President Cartter from withdrawing US troops from South Korea in 1976, which I find far more justifiable. So this does come under the heading of informing the list of all relevant facts and details.
My personal opinion about Tailwind is that yes, I think it happened and if so, the use of Sarin in one instance against American renegades is far more justifiable than the indiscriminate use of Agent Orange as a defoliant. Both are chemical warfare and both are lethal to humans. Agent Orange exposure simply kills much more slowly and painfully than Sarin does.
. That is why I forwarded the entire article, so that listmembers can read all the details and make up their minds themselves about Tailwind's veracity. Because this IS a highly controversial question Admiral Moorer did give the interview that he gave, even if he was living in a nursing home at the time. And he certainly did not appear to be suffering from dementia in that interview.
And Ret. Gen. Singlaub, who spearheaded the backlash against the Tailwind disclosure (which took place as the Clinton Administration Scandals were reaching a crescendo) WAS President Reagan's administrative liason for Iran-Contra, was a founding member of the CIA back in the 1940s and was also a founder according to his Wikipedia biography, of the US chapter of the World Anti-Communist League. And he helped prevent President Cartter from withdrawing US troops from South Korea in 1976, which I find far more justifiable. So this does come under the heading of informing the list of all relevant facts and details.
My personal opinion about Tailwind is that yes, I think it happened and if so, the use of Sarin in one instance against American renegades is far more justifiable than the indiscriminate use of Agent Orange as a defoliant. Both are chemical warfare and both are lethal to humans. Agent Orange exposure simply kills much more slowly and painfully than Sarin does.
twovultures
Donor
Yes, the claims are that the Laos or North Vietnamese government used chemical weapons supplied by the USSR against the Hmong-the Hmong called it yellow rain. Whether that actually was a chemical weapon, some natural phenomenon, or just wartime hysteria, is where the controversy stems from.
There was a pretty nasty spat between Minnesota Public Radio and a Hmong man they interviewed on yellow rain a while ago.
If you have good enough target information to use Sarin Gas from A1Es why not just use napalm and anti personnel bombs? Are you going to have planes sitting on alert waiting for the chance to use the special weapons? If you know the location just divert existing missions with normal ordinance and pound the crap out of the area