Christianizing and surviving? Should be possible but is not like Kongo got the best deal anyhow and I imagine diseases for the locals and the lack of African diseases for the Europeans would make the situation inherently less stable.
AHC/WI: High medieval colonization of the Americas
- Thread starter Gloss
- Start date
Let's get more specific with the tech, what made European ocean voyages possible? The caravel? I'm not particularly knowledgeable with this stuff.
The discovery and settlement of the Azores was before the caravels still.
Spain got rather lucky. They didn't settle much of their empire so much as they conquered and assimilated two other ones. That requires a very different kind of resources- chief among them guns and the armor needed to withstand musketballs. They basically replaced the old order with catholics and added boats, whereas the other ones had to build their societies
The reconquista did take 700 years to conclude one way or another largely because of the internal politicking and the infighting between nobility- such a thing is literally why portugal exists. The crusades weren't setting up an outpost to serve the motherland or even strengthen a trade network, they were going in to make sure christians ruled and tried to convert wherever. and generally those states were on their own afterward- hence why crusades 2-The Rest were needed anyway. They weren't fighting for Empire. but Christianity. And while you could probably find a way to make the Europeans more or less do what the greeks, chinese, and arguably crusades did- go in for trade routes, but as distinctly separate societies not really associated with the motherlands, which would make a decentralized 'colonialism' possible, i don't know how successful it could be; the new world was such an interconnected and complicated mess that i struggle to see success really happening any other way. The slave trade vitalized the sugar plantations that made europe wealthy enough to continue trading with africa to get those slaves
The Azores were not even half-way to North America...
Maybe full-on caravels are not necessary but the kind of ships you need to make the full-on direct oceanic crossings on a regular basis was not something that was around in the Early of High Middle-Age. Hell, you need to wait until the latter part of the Late Middle-Age to see anything close to it being around in Europe, and even then only in Portugal. For the rest you have to wait for the Renaissance.
You need some big butterflies if you want to speed the timetable by the extent you wish, simple as that.
They are not halfway to the Caribbean or South America but they are reasonably close to the distance between them and Newfoundland, which is about 50% more. In any case the thing is that it's qualitative difference to the lands that were in contact with Europe prior.
I mean I was already looking at an early POD, even up to 700 AD if not earlier, that would give plenty of time to create a situation where naval technology could spread and develop more.
I would point out that even the Azores were only settled in 1427 aniway, and that Portugal has a good edge on naval tech.
Having an edge means little as there was plenty of contact, so much so that an English could fund an expedition from England to Newfoundland using an Italian 5 years after Columbus, plus it was a Flemish who accidentally discovered the islands and even if he used Portuguese ships it shows that it's not like such things are a trade secret, the portuguese developed the caravel using inspiration from Islamic designs.
It was more then an edge, at this stage portugese more or less in their own league in Europe in naval tech.
At the end of the day regular direct (as opposed to island hoping) transoceanic crossing only became a thing in the 16th century. You want to advance that time table a good three to four centuries, that needs some serious butterflies. Simple as that.
As stated before: advance the timetable on Vinland enough for it to be developed enough for Groenland to be viable as a simple relay station when the Little Ice Age kick off and then have other european polities decide to invest in naval tech to have their own road to the West.
Its not a full proof concept by any means but its the only way I can see it happen.
I would love for there to be a timeline where the legends of St. Brendan and Prince Madoc were true,then again I've a fondness for Mesoamerican/Ancient Egypt/Nubia/Abynissia fusion as well or Phoenicians actually reaching the Caribbean. What's needed are ships that can handle the voyage and a vested interest. Norse longships can do that. No medieval scholar of merit believed that the world was flat and fishermen knew there was a landmass past Ireland, A possibility could be an earlier need for an alternate route to the Spice Islands,landing on North America and meeting the Mound Builders or landing further south in one of the Mesoamerican civilizations which more than likely would Mayan. Maybe discovering new goods.riches or allies. It doesn't even have to be Christian,have an expedition from Al Andalus . Anyway,it can be done. No,it doesn't have to be total conquest.but maybe an exchange of ideas,
Going Azores-Newfoundland may look close on a map, but that’s also going very much the wrong direction on the North Atlantic Gyre, which is going to make that a longer trip than a map would indicate. The Caribbean or Brazil are the easiest options for open ocean exploration.
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There won't be any large power in the Valley of Mexico (just a bunch of city-states), but on the other hand, the Yucatan will be unified into the League of Mayapan, putting the Mayans in a such stronger position than they were in 1492. The northern coast of Peru will have the Empire of Chimor and the Lake Titicaca region will have the various Aymara lordships. Also, North America will be in the height of the Mississippian Moundbuilders and the Ancient Pueblo (Anasazi), Hohokam, and Mogollon.
Could the taconite ore from the Mesabi Range be exploited with medieval or Renaissance level metallurgy?
If the Vikings got addicted to cod by 800, ate the nearest harvest, and chased the cod schools out to sea till they reached Newfoundland by 1000 there'd be ships with heavy hulls that could take the stress of a tall ship's rigging and make large-scale travel to the Americas possible by then. In our timeline Eric the Red lost 10 out of 25 ships just going from Iceland to Greenland, so we need the upgrade to tall ships to make medieval colonization possible. Columbus lost one out of three, still bad. But Europeans were willing to kill some noticeable chunk of the male population in sea voyages in our timeline, just so they made money doing it.
How did Joao Fernandes Lavrador reach Newfoundland and Greenland in 1498? John Cabot also used a relatively inefficient route I think.
Can the medieval cog or carrack type ships engage in seagoing travels of smaller distances?
I suspect if any power is strong enough to do this, it is the Papacy. The Merovingian kings and the Visigothic kings will have the demographics to sustain this, but the Papacy will have the power to unite the realms. The major question is, will the Papacy acquire power over the Visigoths for which to force a united effort between them and the Franks. My opinion is a no. This though is not necessary, the Visigoths can be used as part of a North African push and likewise the Papal sword into the Mid East. The Franks by contrast will be the vault to the north, defending from the Norse prior to conversion and also managing the affairs of the majority of Latin Christendom's population. This population may become too large under a massive Merovingian empire that lacks internal wars and lacks Crusades afar or colonization to the east. Say many of the Slavic states to the east convert peacefully and the Papacy protects them, making the Frankish borders become France, the Low Country, Austria, Bavaria, the Rhineland, and Germany the rest ending at the Elbe, say at Hamburg downward. This is a truly massive demographic power and one with enormous potential, far exceeding the demographic pull of the Spanish empire, even in the year 1000 CE, such an entity will have greatly more resources than Spain.
Considering that no eastern colonization occurs, or is far less, we might see the Franks move west. Perhaps a colonization of Iceland or intermingling of itself with the Nordic inhabitants in early years. This would maybe be prior to a Frankish conquest of Ireland.
If a discovery is to occur though, the reason to go to it and colonize it, will have to come from the Papacy, the most powerful potentiate in the region. The Papacy may order some sort of Frankish push westward, but this will be chaotic, haphazard and the Papacy may lose interest in the long run if there is setbacks in the east. However, it is likely that the Papacy will wish to redistribute excess population outside of Europe, this will include Africa and ideally for atl, America.
Regarding transit, I am not familiar with naval prerequisites to cross the seas. However, the Franks are not far from Ireland if they can attain the necessary Papal sanction to conquer Ireland and possibly Scotland and other islands. This will allow the Franks to fire forth into Iceland, and henceforth toward Greenland and then to Vinland. The franks will have the demographics and the economic force with which to sustain a population movement if they have a reason, something that the Nords increasingly did not hold.
This all will be contingent upon Papal force though. If the Papacy is unable to induce movements and create preferred models of growth for its Latin-Germanic subjects, Europe will be unable to undertake these ventures, just as Crusades were impossible without the Papacy, so too would colonization.
Well, my point is that the Gothic kingdom is a demographically powerful entity, regardless of its socio-political situation. Ultimately, it does not matter, in the future, the Papacy will attempt to place its hand into Iberia in an overt sense and will build up factions therein with the power to retake the power lost by the Baltid royal clan. The Papacy can use the Franks to do this if at all possible and would be preferred. After which, the Visigoths can be permitted to expand into Africa. In otl, the Papacy utilized the Frankish element for Crusades primarily due to this being the only demographic entity with which the Papacy could tap into for expansion, aside for the Norman element. The Papacy may be unwilling to mix Frankish and Gothic claims to Africa either, as this may cause division, as we know, the Papacy in otl was unwillign to give the same privilege to multiple kingdoms, so as to diminish infighting.
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@KingOnTheEdge
Well, the Franks already possess the military organization and skill with which to subdue in pitched battles any of the foes they encounter. The main question si for what reason they would seek to do so. This is where the Papacy comes in, as a the cosmological basis for Latin expansion in all fronts. As we see from otl, the Papacy was able to cajole and inspire low nobles and their retainers into traversing great distances for the chance at better lands and for absolution of sins. In this world wherein a Merovingii or massive Frankish realm strides Europe as a colossus, the need for low nobles to acquire holdings fitting their status and name is more important. The Papacy and the overall Frankish monarch must find areas to divert them. The most unlikely of possible examples, is someway to dump these into the New World and provide a pension to said travelling warriors in peasants and women from across the Frankish realm. Sensationalized peasantry in the Middle Ages displayed their willingness to traverse the Sea on behalf of their king or the Papacy, especially in the Frankish realms, surely they did so and did so across lands, they may do so even in this instance.
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One major benefit to the Medieval mindset in colonization, is that Medieval Europe possessed a cosmology more revolved around an expansionism that did not pertain to monetary benefit, instead such monetary benefits were intermingled. This cosmological basis, had to do with the expansion upon all important fronts in an enterprise to 'restore order' and secondary to this, as evident by certain Papal sentiments, was the notion of uniting the world under a series of rulers originating primarily from the Frankish seed. Post 1414 Europe, did not yet have a world conquest cosmological basis, at least not as aggressive as the Medieval one and it was likewise, any amount that it did hold, was holdovers from that which the Frankish world possessed in 1000-1300.