AHC: The Fourth Reich
- Thread starter Tresckow
- Start date
Cuban Missile Crisis goes nuclear and Otto Ernst Remer and Hans-Ulrich Rudel set up shop in (mostly irradiated) Germany?
It's vaguely thinkable that, in a scenario with an ongoing Cold War, the East German ruling elite takes on a more overt nationalist tone, à la Ceaucescu or even go full Juche style. That way, you'd have an autocratic and nationalistic Germany, albeit not a united one. Although the specific geopolitical position of the DDR probably would never allow it to take its nationalism as far as leaving the Warsaw Pact or follow an really autonomous diplomacy.
Garrison
Donor
Even a hint of such a regime is going to bring the hammer down, no one is going to risk Germany deciding to go for round three.
Apparently, Krushchev was willing to risk it--during his effort to bring Mongolia into the Warsaw Pact, there were objections from East Germany and Poland, who did not want to get dragged into what seemed to be a pointless plan for war with China. Kruschev's son in law was sent to West Germany, where he, apparently acting in Nikita Sergeyevich's name, offered that the Soviet Union would withdraw its support for East Germany and allow reunification of the Germanies--and support German re-annexation of the territories lost to Poland in 1945 if Gomulka still complained.
Garrison
Donor
News of such talks doubtless reached the GDR swiftly and persuaded them to tow the line, which was doubtless the reason for making the suggestion. besides I can't see the FRG agreeing to such terms, especially not as NATO member and a pretty solid democracy by that point.
That was what I was thinking. You need something so radical as to upend the entire global power structure.
A perhaps “soft” Fourth Reich is possible - if all the Germanic states were to decide to form together as a counter to European unity and form their own union, it could be feasible. Why they would do that I’m not entirely clear on; I do know Germany is a strong economic nation and may feel that other European nations would just step on their toes. So they join forces with the likes of Austria and maybe some other neighbors (Norway/Sweden/Denmark or perhaps the Czech Republic or something.)
It would almost certainly not be authoritarian, even if it maybe is more protectionist and geared toward economic development. A scenario of an economically ambitions Germany (I’m picturing the expansionist, nationalist spirit of Germany in the 1930s redone to mean one thing and one thing alone - economic growth. In other words, they wouldn’t give a shit what race you are or even where you were born; if you’re in Germany, your goal is to make a fuckton of money, like Japan during the postwar years except more ethnically heterogeneous.)
It would almost certainly not be authoritarian, even if it maybe is more protectionist and geared toward economic development. A scenario of an economically ambitions Germany (I’m picturing the expansionist, nationalist spirit of Germany in the 1930s redone to mean one thing and one thing alone - economic growth. In other words, they wouldn’t give a shit what race you are or even where you were born; if you’re in Germany, your goal is to make a fuckton of money, like Japan during the postwar years except more ethnically heterogeneous.)
It also very quickly returned to Moscow and was one of the reasons Kruschev was deposed.
Deleted member 169412
Poland tries to break away from the Eastern Bloc in 1956 and East Germany "saves the day". Russia hands Szczecin over to East Germany (which I remember them talking about doing if Poland tried anything like that) and East Germany becomes more nationalist than OTL as a result.
I can't East Germany playing much of major role on potential Polish revolt. But getting Stettin back might be possible.
Deleted member 169412
I'm sure Stettin was always on the table if Poland decided to rise up.
Anything more than that I can't see as realistic given that lots of Poland's industry was located in the "Recovered Territories" and handing them over to Germany would cripple Poland economically.
Excuse me, what? Are you really comparing the EU to a genocidal fascist state which killed tens of millions?
kham_coc
Banned
I'm not sure that the Soviets would care at that point. It could also be a fait acompli where the gdr simply moves in and says we aren't leaving. I doubt that the Soviets would expend capital, political or military, to save the poles from a greater punishment than they were already due for.
Nebogipfel
Monthly Donor
In 1956 WWII was just 11 years away. Memory of the Ostfront was *very* fresh, the last German POW were just released a year ago. Just 3 years ago the soviets sent troops to put down demonstrations in the GDR. In other words, it is not very probable that the SU will do even their part of Germany any bigger favor. And the GDR acting *militarily* without consulting Moscow would not go down very well - the soviets would probably see this as open challenge to their control and act very decisively.
IMO, the only way for this to happen is if socialists (or at least Social Democrats) take power in West Germany in the 1950s, the height of the US Red Scare. In OTL, the US successfully supported Conrad Adenauer and his Christian Democrats. But what if the SPD gained a majority in the Bundestag? Then Erich Ollenhauer might have become Chancellor. He supported something called the Ollenhauer plan, which sought re-unification with the East under a collective security arrangement outside of NATO. This would have alarmed the American government. In that scenario, I could see the US covertly backing an ex-Nazi to lead a coup against Ollenhauer to prevent West Germany from falling to Communism (much like the CIA would later do with Allende in Chile). At that time, the US propped up many right-wing dictatorships in the name of stopping the spread of communism, so I think it's plausible.
From the Wikipedia article titled "Fourth Reich," section title "Usage to indicate German influence in the European Union"
It doesn't take a rocket scientist to know that I was making a joke about Germany's power in the EU.