AHC Russia military equal to German military by 1914

[miketr]

How to put this? The armies of Tsarist Russia and the USSR were both notorious for systematic lying up and down the chains of command, horrible maintenance practices and theft. There are crazy stories out there, anecdotes perhaps, of a Russian soldier desperate for a drink, consumes cleaning fluid and ruins X bit of equipment.

You can certainly make the Russians better and they actually did improve between 1900 and 1914. The qualitative equal of Imperial Germany? I dont see how thats possible to be honest.

Michael

 

[Raferty]

The logistical problems were so immense that I am not sure if they are fixable without a massive POD at least 50 years in the past. Everything, from infrastructure, doctrine, mobilization time tables, officer quality and recruit quality, armaments, are problems that are rooted in the nature of Imperial Russia itself and its society.

There are things that can make things better, however. More standardization of artillery and shell production, a dedicated small arms production expansion, more intensive and longer lasting training of reservists, all of these things would help and I think were doable. Having the army be deployed strategically on the border in peacetime, ready for war and at full strength (in the frontline formations; the reserve forces are a different story), may be diplomatically a problem but would help matters, I think.

More deep rooted things, like the commander quality, NCO quality, average infantrymen being literate and numerate, are going to be harder to fix. A more professionalized officer class I think isn't too much to ask for, though.

 

[Aghasverov]

Would Russia having same gauge system that the rest of europe have help the Russian army?

Not from a defensive standpoint. There were some real advantages to having that break-of-gauge right at or near the western borders...

 

[GuildedAgeNostalgia]

If Russia shrunk the size of its army, would the extra resources/money from downsizing be reallocated into upping the quality of the military/improving logistics?

 

[The Galaxy]

On Jan 1st 1900

Land reform

Forgive the peasants debts which many had to take to be able to buy low quality land at very high prices from the land owners via the bank operated by these land owners.

Install a constitutional democracy, universal suffrage for both men and women, 1 person 1 vote. The parliament can pass laws, that then must go to the Tzar for approval and he can veto it unless 2/3 agree. And have a Tzar that will not meddle too much.

Have massive investments into education.

And if the goal is the year 1914 and nothing else matters, then loans, loans and more loans, all going towards expanding education and the economy, until the last few years where it changes towards the military.

With a higher educated population the Fedorov Semi Auto can be adopted and used earlier.

With higher education and a larger economy there can be a much larger air force, specifically the "Ilya Muromets" which was the best bomber of ww1, more can be built and more pilots can be trained.

 

[dunHozzie]

Not that I disagree of what you want to do, but the thing is you need to pay for these. Loans won’t cover the bill. Russia post Napoleonetic wars had a chance to reform and build a educated middle class that supplies NCO, junior officers and enough Taxes. They didn’t and the rest was a gradual slope to decline.

 

[Riain]

What about a different State Duma? IOTL the 1st Duma was called in 1906 after the 1905 Revolution, it met 5 times between 1906 and 1917 and while it started out reasonably representative and democratic it became increasingly less so.

WI the Duma started earlier (say 1900) and followed a different path, remaining representative and democratic and evolving to be more of both? Would such a Duma be able to implement some of the societal, government, infrastructure, industrial and other reforms that would increase the performance of the Russian Army by 1914. Could it loosen some of the hidebound nature of the Tsarist Army, give merit a bit more weight in promotions and intervene in a positive way in some of the controversies within it?

 

[Aghasverov]

What about a different State Duma? IOTL the 1st Duma was called in 1906 after the 1905 Revolution, it met 5 times between 1906 and 1917 and while it started out reasonably representative and democratic it became increasingly less so.

WI the Duma started earlier (say 1900) and followed a different path, remaining representative and democratic and evolving to be more of both? Would such a Duma be able to implement some of the societal, government, infrastructure, industrial and other reforms that would increase the performance of the Russian Army by 1914. Could it loosen some of the hidebound nature of the Tsarist Army, give merit a bit more weight in promotions and intervene in a positive way in some of the controversies within it?

Not sure this would be possible without a different Constitution and/or a different Tsar. Loosening the hidebound nature of ANYTHING too much in the old Empire would've led to a rapid dissolution, as Tsar Nicky tried to use to his advantage three times in OTL...

 

[marathag]

Would Russia having same gauge system that the rest of europe have help the Russian army?

It's a block both ways, Germans attacking Russia, or Russia attacking Germany. Until regauged, it will be slow.
Should note that it was somewhat common for Polish and German rail ties to be too short for the simple moving of the rail iron over and respike at the broad gauge distance

Ties would need to be replaced for broad gauge.
So if the Russian had a lot of plans to go west, Standard Gauge would be the way to go

 

[Riain]

Not sure this would be possible without a different Constitution and/or a different Tsar.

Yeah, the OTL Duma came about from the 1905 revolution which is pretty typical for increasing power of the people at the expense of monarchs. If for whatever reason the Duma was started in 1900 the revolution might give it more power.

Loosening the hidebound nature of ANYTHING too much in the old Empire would've led to a rapid dissolution, as Tsar Nicky tried to use to his advantage three times in OTL...

I wouldn't expect too much could be done in ~14 years, but iirc there were some controversies within the Army that perhaps the Duma might provide some good input to.

 

[Anarch King of Dipsodes]

Kaiser Friedrich III lives 20 years longer, and "demiilitarizes" Germany; i.e. encourages/accepts lower army budgets from the Reichstag; also encourages/accepts expanded exemptions from military service. By 1914, Germany's army is half of OTL's.

 

[Thomas1195]

That depends on the education Russia can provide. Indoctrination through education is something that Russia can do; to what level can it do that is the question. Many Russian revolutionaries turned revolutionary because of ill-education as well. It was only the top brass that got the best education. Better education would mean that many of the support base in Russia for the revolutionaries would wane; by a good margin. Better education would inevitably mean better next generation professionals, which would mean better budgeting as well, etc etc. All in all, education was the key to much off Russia's problems, economically, socially and militarily as well.

If you try to distort education to indoctrinate people (see how Nazi Germany messed up the world-class education it inherited from the Weimar Republic IOTL), then it could potentially weaken the potential effectivenesss of the system.

 

[Sarthak]

If you try to distort education to indoctrinate people (see how Nazi Germany messed up the world-class education it inherited from the Weimar Republic IOTL), then it could potentially weaken the potential effectivenesss of the system.

indoctrination =/= fanaticism. That's what the Tsar tried OTL with the Orthodox and Autocratic education system.
Simply making them loyal through education would be enough. Create a 'Russian Exceptionalism' kind off thing encompassing the entire empire rather than just glorifying the Orthodoxy. Like the 'Habsburg Exceptionalism' in Austria, 'Monarchical and Imperial Exceptionalism' in Britain, 'Manifest Exceptionalism' in America, etc.

 

[Cuirassier]

Kaiser Friedrich III lives 20 years longer, and "demiilitarizes" Germany; i.e. encourages/accepts lower army budgets from the Reichstag; also encourages/accepts expanded exemptions from military service. By 1914, Germany's army is half of OTL's.

You are assuming the Kaiser will agree to demilitarize in an era when Russia/France were Fielding bigger armies.
Realistically he will just change his mind and expand to counter

They like studied the Crimean War voraciously for example whilst the other countries studied the 1878 war voraciously.

What gave you this impression?
Russia was the only power to get hands on experience during the Russo-Japanese War.

 

[Sarthak]

You are assuming the Kaiser will agree to demilitarize in an era when Russia/France were Fielding bigger armies.
Realistically he will just change his mind and expand to counter

What gave you this impression?
Russia was the only power to get hands on experience during the Russo-Japanese War.

The PoD is 1900, not 1905.

 

[Jaenera Targaryen]

Just one thing: Russia having a military equal to Germany will cause Britain to drop the Entente Cordiale like a hot potato. The latter are practically guaranteed to win a war against Germany, leading to Europe being divided into Franco-Russian spheres of interest along the Elbe. France will be under pressure to drop Russia and make rapprochement to Germany, but since that is never going to happen, Britain will likely push hard for an accommodation with Germany.

 

[Cuirassier]

The PoD is 1900, not 1905.

The OP says 1900 or later. My point still stands, the Russians were not thinking about the Crimean War.

 

[Sarthak]

The OP says 1900 or later. My point still stands, the Russians were not thinking about the Crimean War.

I was talking about that time. Also many of the problems encountered by the Russians were not the same in Europe than Manchuria. Warfare in Europe and Manchuria were very different things. Problems were vastly different and much of Russia's logistical support for their European theatre came from the aftermath of the Crimean War.

 

[Cuirassier]

I was talking about that time. Also many of the problems encountered by the Russians were not the same in Europe than Manchuria. Warfare in Europe and Manchuria were very different things. Problems were vastly different and much of Russia's logistical support for their European theatre came from the aftermath of the Crimean War.

No idea what you mean by this. You said:

They like studied the Crimean War voraciously for example whilst the other countries studied the 1878 war voraciously.

What made you believe that the Russians studies the Crimean War instead of later conflicts?