AHC: Rump Byzantine Empire survives to the Present

Okay so I noticed most Byzantine Empire survival scenarios have it continue to survive as a huge empire, but I decided as a really quick AHC while I struggle with writers block on the main TL I'm working on.

Your goal is this
  1. Turn the Byzantine Empire into a tiny rump state
  2. Have this tiny rump state that's still technically the Byzantine Empire survive to the present
How could this happen?
 
Turn the Byzantine Empire into a tiny rump state
hmmm i don't think in the long run this could be possible. What it's possible though is to keep the byzantine empire that can sustain itself in the long run with resources, but not as a small rump state.
For me, these territories with the empire not ending as an unrealistic monster are good:
  • Greece
  • Thrace
  • Albania
  • Bulgaria
  • Everything down to Naissus (including the city itself)
  • All Anatolia in the west of the Euphrates
  • Cyprus, Crete
  • Southern Italy and Sicily
Bonus territories:
  • Cilicia (armenian)
  • Phoenicia
  • Aleppo region
  • Homs and Hama (Emesa and Epiphaneia)
+ everything would hellenize with the time
 
Okay so I noticed most Byzantine Empire survival scenarios have it continue to survive as a huge empire, but I decided as a really quick AHC while I struggle with writers block on the main TL I'm working on.

Your goal is this
  1. Turn the Byzantine Empire into a tiny rump state
  2. Have this tiny rump state that's still technically the Byzantine Empire survive to the present
How could this happen?
If the Nicopolis Crusade goes well and Bayezid dies in battle, the Ottomans would be embroiled in civil war whilst the Balkan Christians can easily take back the land. But other than that I'm very skeptical of the Byzantines being able to exert their control in Anatolia after that. It'll already be difficult dealing with Bulgarians, Serbs, Albanians, Italians, and other Greek states as it is.
 
Honestly the problem I have with such a scenario is that keeping Byzantium a "rump state" would only be a thing for so long. It's not a tenable state of affairs as the things which make it very unstable was what led to its ultimate collapse. Keep in mind when it became so weak and vulnerable other other states tried to conquer it, or outright usurp it in the case of Serbia and Bulgaria. Its also sitting in such a strategically important area with lots of rich lands that any such weakness is too tempting for its neighbors to ignore.

If its too vulnerable you might just end up with a restored Latin Empire, as ridiculous as that sounds.

hmmm i don't think in the long run this could be possible. What it's possible though is to keep the byzantine empire that can sustain itself in the long run with resources, but not as a small rump state.
For me, these territories with the empire not ending as an unrealistic monster are good:
  • Greece
  • Thrace
  • Albania
  • Bulgaria
  • Everything down to Naissus (including the city itself)
  • All Anatolia in the west of the Euphrates
  • Cyprus, Crete
  • Southern Italy and Sicily
Bonus territories:
  • Cilicia (armenian)
  • Phoenicia
  • Aleppo region
  • Homs and Hama (Emesa and Epiphaneia)
+ everything would hellenize with the time
Honestly a Byzantium like this would be well positioned to eventually become "monster." They would be a strong regional power, and in the late medieval era many of its neighbors were weakened internally which was what allowed the Ottomans to outright conquer them. I don't see how the Romans wouldn't do the same when that was their policy as well.
 
It'd be nice to have the empire survive after 1453 by relocating to the west in a rocambolesque (?) way
I once made a rough sketch:
1423 Demetrios is captured on his way to Hungary, he ends up on Lemnos as de facto prisoner
1425 taking advantage of Manuel II's death, Demetrios bribes one of the guards to escape, he gets on a ship to Sicily (Aragon seems to have shown some interest in Lemnos iotl, so he can try to sell it. Not sure about the legality of it though?)
1429 he leads a relief force to Malta and is made count of the island as a reward
1430's-40's Demetrios befriends Alfonso V and makes peace w/ his brothers in the East
1453 his ships help smuggle the Imperial treasure from Constantinople
1490's the current count of Malta purchases the island of Linosa (maybe uninhabited in this period) from Ferdinand II and stiles himself as EREmperor there
1530 Charles V convinces the current Count and Emperor to grant Malta to the Knights in exchange for another fief somewhere
Centuries later Linosa goes back to the Kingdom of Sicily, but the other fief gets independence from the HREmpire in turn. Probably the ruling dynasty has changed, but the EREmpire still lives (as a microstate)
I once made a sketch in another thread
A Palaiologoi dynasty surviving somewhere within the hre (possibly in the Alps) while claiming the eastern imperial title through a technically independent (although very likely lightly populated) Linosa can survive for long and maybe go down the Liechtenstein route
 
hmmm i don't think in the long run this could be possible. What it's possible though is to keep the byzantine empire that can sustain itself in the long run with resources, but not as a small rump state.
For me, these territories with the empire not ending as an unrealistic monster are good:
  • Greece
  • Thrace
  • Albania
  • Bulgaria
  • Everything down to Naissus (including the city itself)
  • All Anatolia in the west of the Euphrates
  • Cyprus, Crete
  • Southern Italy and Sicily
Bonus territories:
  • Cilicia (armenian)
  • Phoenicia
  • Aleppo region
  • Homs and Hama (Emesa and Epiphaneia)
+ everything would hellenize with the time
This is a large empire, not just a state which manages to supply itself. It kinda goes against the whole idea of this threat.
 
  1. Turn the Byzantine Empire into a tiny rump state
  2. Have this tiny rump state that's still technically the Byzantine Empire survive to the present

Constantine XI accepts Mehmet II's ultimatum - to abandon Constantinople in return for being permitted to reign as Emperor in the Morea. By restraining his brothers and with a bit of luck, he manages to establish a stable dynasty ruling from Mystras. He and his successors are able to carefully restore the defences of the peninsula previously damaged by Ottoman attacks. The price of continued freedom is Ottoman suzerainty - either Mehmet or a later Sultan makes makes Morea's vassalage explicit. Tribute is heavy, but the statelet endures. When war breaks out between the Ottomans and the Venetians, the Moreots are rewarded for their services against the Serene Republic with some of the cities and islands close to their little realm, although Konstaniniyye takes the big prizes like Crete and Euboea for itself.

The history of the Morea - still considering themselves the last remnant of Rome (although this is downplayed whenever a Sultan, bearers of the title 'Kayser-i Rum', show an interest) - follows a course similar to that of the principalities of Wallachia and Moldavia. Ottoman influence in Mystras waxes and wanes, but the dynasty and Rhoman autonomy ultimately survive. The change likely does little to alter the wider course of European history.

Using a somewhat generous butterfly net, as the fortunes of the Ottomans begin to decline, the emperors (or, perhaps, despotes) in the Morea begin to have a stronger hand. Powers from western Europe begin to assert themselves in the eastern Mediterranean. Communication with Russia becomes easier and more important - once almost exclusively ecclesiastical in nature, now the correspondence between the two Orthodox realms begins to become more political.

In time, ideas of nationalism (or TTL's equivalent) emerge and spread into the Balkans. In the Morea, visions of a restored Rhomania enter into the discourse. Mystras also begins to play on its ancient Greek past to win favour with westerners, and the city of Sparta close to the Moreot capital becomes a magnet for European philhellenes. As the Republic of Venice weakens, the island of Kythira falls under Morea's control, to be followed by the other Ionian islands as the decades wear on.

The dawn of the 19th century sees an upswing in Rhomaic nationalism and a further weakening of the Turks, as Russia and the western powers begin to weaken the Porte's grip on the Balkans. Finally, the tensions become too great, and an uprising of Rhomans in Rumelia and the isles - in 1821, say - breaks out. Unlike the Greek War of Independence IOTL, this rebellion is guided by a single authority in Mystras, who officially renounces Ottoman suzerainty and styles himself 'Emperor of Rhomania'. It is better organised and better led than IOTL, and thus finds more success. Attica, Boeotia, Phocia and Aetolia quickly fall under Moreot control. A pro-Moreot revolt in Crete is crushed by the Ottomans, but Euboea and the Cyclades also fall under the control of the rebels. The Moreots begin to make inroads into Thessaly and southern Epirus.

The rebellion sparks off a diplomatic crisis. Russia begins to plot war against the Porte in the defence of their Orthodox brethren, whilst the westerners fear a possible Turkish collapse. A conference is called to discuss the revolt, but the Moreots press their advantage in the meantime, taking all of Thessaly and even planning an advance against Thessaloniki. Meanwhile, Rhomans elsewhere in the Ottoman Empire begin to face suppression and violence as the Porte begins to suspect their Rhomaic subjects of disloyalty. Their actions only increase sympathy for Mystras amongst Rhomans under Ottoman rule, but uprisings in Thrace, Constantinople and Smyrna are put down.

The conference sets the peace terms, and imposes them upon both Mystras and Constantinople. Morea will recieve all of mainland Greece up to Thessaly and the southern half of Epirus, including Arta but not Ioannina. Euboea and the Cyclades are also gained. Crete will remain under Ottoman rule, but will receive autonomy under an Orthodox ruler. The Moreots accept the terms, knowing that they are unready to absorb more - the terms as they are see their little realm effectively triple in size. The Porte does too, with a little more western encouragement.

From then on the state is renamed 'Rhomania', its bounds now extending far beyond the Morea. It possesses from its inception territories equivalent to or slightly in excess of those of OTL's 1881 Greece, but several decades early. It is also more politically stable than OTL Greece, having a native-born monarchy of the 'right' faith and with great - and now, because of the war, greater - prestige. It's rulers retain the Rhomaic title basileus, which in their minds means 'emperor', but the westerners generally prefer to translate it as 'king'.

In the decades that follow an equivalent to the OTL 'Megali Idea' springs up in Rhomania, seeking the annexation of ethnically Rhomaic lands into a single state. Other Balkan peoples begin to revolt against their Ottoman overlords as well, with Serbia and Bulgaria reappearing on the map of Europe after centuries of Turkish rule. The Danubian Principalities of Wallachia and Moldavia eventually unite as the Kingdom of Dacia, enjoying Russian sponsorship.

Further wars eventually break out between Rhomania and the Ottomans. In one such war, the Rhomanians successfully capture northern Epirus, Thessaloniki and Crete, but are prevented from going further by stiff Ottoman resistance in Thrace and western intervention. The capital thereafter moves from Mystras to Thessaloniki, most prestigious of all the cities of the realm. Athens remains a relatively small city, albeit with a thriving tourist industry. Serbia and Bulgaria also begin to expand further. The Rhomanian conquest of Macedonia (in the 1850s-60s, say) sees the first influx of significant non-Rhomaic populations into the realm, with large populations of Turks, Bulgars and Jews falling under Rhomanian rule.

Despite encountering some Bulgarian objections, Thrace also eventually falls under the rule of Thessaloniki, although Constantinople remains in Ottoman hands thanks to their stubborn resistance and the desire of the Russians to reserve the city for themselves. A rapprochement between the Ottomans and the Bulgars blossoms as each seeks to gain an advantage over the Rhomanians. In turn, Thessaloniki looks to Serbia and Dacia for support. The westerners look on in disquiet, desiring to keep the Russians away from the Straits but not trusting the Orthodox Rhomanians to keep them out if Constantinople fell into their hands.

Who can tell what might happen after that? Perhaps the Rhomanians will successfully claim Constantinople, or perhaps the Bulgars and Turks will push them back to Thessaloniki or beyond. What we can say is that such a state would indisputably be in direct continuity with the mediaeval and ancient Roman Empire.

The Empire of Rhomania, circa 1880.
Morea to Rhomania.png


There are obviously other cities that could be labelled on here, I just went with three that might be most helpful to include given the scenario.

Now wondering whether I should've done the map in purple rather than blue, to make it clearer this is Rome and not Greece!

Also, the transition from 'Rhoman' to 'Rhomanian' was deliberate - I envisaged 'Rhoman' and 'Rhomaic' as ethnic/linguistic terms, whereas 'Rhomanian' is a nationality ' of or pertaining to the state of Rhomania'. This is, of course, not to be confused with OTL's Romania - ITTL, its equivalent revives and assumes the name 'Dacia' instead.

I would've liked to have gone into more detail about the Phanariotes and the Eastern Orthodox Church in this mini scenario, but I felt there wasn't enough time or space!


- Ilu
 
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Okay so I noticed most Byzantine Empire survival scenarios have it continue to survive as a huge empire, but I decided as a really quick AHC while I struggle with writers block on the main TL I'm working on.

Your goal is this
  1. Turn the Byzantine Empire into a tiny rump state
  2. Have this tiny rump state that's still technically the Byzantine Empire survive to the present
How could this happen?
if you wanted really tiny it is slightly off subject but amusing to note Mount Athos, which claims to be independent has an Imperial charter.
 
if you wanted really tiny it is slightly off subject but amusing to note Mount Athos, which claims to be independent has an Imperial charter.
Instructions unclear, Mt. Athos was made to be an autonomous exclave of the Ecumenical State of Constantinople. The Basileus was crowned and proclaimed Holy Rhoman Emperor.

Constantine XI accepts Mehmet II's ultimatum - to abandon Constantinople in return for being permitted to reign as Emperor in the Morea. By restraining his brothers and with a bit of luck, he manages to establish a stable dynasty ruling from Mystras. He and his successors are able to carefully restore the defences of the peninsula previously damaged by Ottoman attacks. The price of continued freedom is Ottoman suzerainty - either Mehmet or a later Sultan makes makes Morea's vassalage explicit. Tribute is heavy, but the statelet endures. When war breaks out between the Ottomans and the Venetians, the Moreots are rewarded for their services against the Serene Republic with some of the cities and islands close to their little realm, although Konstaniniyye takes the big prizes like Crete and Euboea for itself.

The history of the Morea - still considering themselves the last remnant of Rome (although this is downplayed whenever a Sultan, bearers of the title 'Kayser-i Rum', show an interest) - follows a course similar to that of the principalities of Wallachia and Moldavia. Ottoman influence in Mystras waxes and wanes, but the dynasty and Rhoman autonomy ultimately survive. The change likely does little to alter the wider course of European history.

Using a somewhat generous butterfly net, as the fortunes of the Ottomans begin to decline, the emperors (or, perhaps, despotes) in the Morea begin to have a stronger hand. Powers from western Europe begin to assert themselves in the eastern Mediterranean. Communication with Russia becomes easier and more important - once almost exclusively ecclesiastical in nature, now the correspondence between the two Orthodox realms begins to become more political.

In time, ideas of nationalism (or TTL's equivalent) emerge and spread into the Balkans. In the Morea, visions of a restored Rhomania enter into the discourse. Mystras also begins to play on its ancient Greek past to win favour with westerners, and the city of Sparta close to the Moreot capital becomes a magnet for European philhellenes. As the Republic of Venice weakens, the island of Kythira falls under Morea's control, to be followed by the other Ionian islands as the decades wear on.

The dawn of the 19th century sees an upswing in Rhomaic nationalism and a further weakening of the Turks, as Russia and the western powers begin to weaken the Porte's grip on the Balkans. Finally, the tensions become too great, and an uprising of Rhomans in Rumelia and the isles - in 1821, say - breaks out. Unlike the Greek War of Independence IOTL, this rebellion is guided by a single authority in Mystras, who officially renounces Ottoman suzerainty and styles himself 'Emperor of Rhomania'. It is better organised and better led than IOTL, and thus finds more success. Attica, Boeotia, Phocia and Aetolia quickly fall under Moreot control. A pro-Moreot revolt in Crete is crushed by the Ottomans, but Euboea and the Cyclades also fall under the control of the rebels. The Moreots begin to make inroads into Thessaly and southern Epirus.

The rebellion sparks off a diplomatic crisis. Russia begins to plot war against the Porte in the defence of their Orthodox brethren, whilst the westerners fear a possible Turkish collapse. A conference is called to discuss the revolt, but the Moreots press their advantage in the meantime, taking all of Thessaly and even planning an advance against Thessaloniki. Meanwhile, Rhomans elsewhere in the Ottoman Empire begin to face suppression and violence as the Porte begins to suspect their Rhomaic subjects of disloyalty. Their actions only increase sympathy for Mystras amongst Rhomans under Ottoman rule, but uprisings in Thrace, Constantinople and Smyrna are put down.

The conference sets the peace terms, and imposes them upon both Mystras and Constantinople. Morea will recieve all of mainland Greece up to Thessaly and the southern half of Epirus, including Arta but not Ioannina. Euboea and the Cyclades are also gained. Crete will remain under Ottoman rule, but will receive autonomy under an Orthodox ruler. The Moreots accept the terms, knowing that they are unready to absorb more - the terms as they are see their little realm effectively triple in size. The Porte does too, with a little more western encouragement.

From then on the state is renamed 'Rhomania', its bounds now extending far beyond the Morea. It possesses from its inception territories equivalent to or slightly in excess of those of OTL's 1881 Greece, but several decades early. It is also more politically stable than OTL Greece, having a native-born monarchy of the 'right' faith and with great - and now, because of the war, greater - prestige. It's rulers retain the Rhomaic title basileus, which in their minds means 'emperor', but the westerners generally prefer to translate it as 'king'.

In the decades that follow an equivalent to the OTL 'Megali Idea' springs up in Rhomania, seeking the annexation of ethnically Rhomaic lands into a single state. Other Balkan peoples begin to revolt against their Ottoman overlords as well, with Serbia and Bulgaria reappearing on the map of Europe after centuries of Turkish rule. The Danubian Principalities of Wallachia and Moldavia eventually unite as the Kingdom of Dacia, enjoying Russian sponsorship.

Further wars eventually break out between Rhomania and the Ottomans. In one such war, the Rhomanians successfully capture northern Epirus, Thessaloniki and Crete, but are prevented from going further by stiff Ottoman resistance in Thrace and western intervention. The capital thereafter moves from Mystras to Thessaloniki, most prestigious of all the cities of the realm. Athens remains a relatively small city, albeit with a thriving tourist industry. Serbia and Bulgaria also begin to expand further. The Rhomanian conquest of Macedonia (in the 1850s-60s, say) sees the first influx of significant non-Rhomaic populations into the realm, with large populations of Turks, Bulgars and Jews falling under Rhomanian rule.

Despite encountering some Bulgarian objections, Thrace also eventually falls under the rule of Thessaloniki, although Constantinople remains in Ottoman hands thanks to their stubborn resistance and the desire of the Russians to reserve the city for themselves. A rapprochement between the Ottomans and the Bulgars blossoms as each seeks to gain an advantage over the Rhomanians. In turn, Thessaloniki looks to Serbia and Dacia for support. The westerners look on in disquiet, desiring to keep the Russians away from the Straits but not trusting the Orthodox Rhomanians to keep them out if Constantinople fell into their hands.

Who can tell what might happen after that? Perhaps the Rhomanians will successfully claim Constantinople, or perhaps the Bulgars and Turks will push them back to Thessaloniki or beyond. What we can say is that such a state would indisputably be in direct continuity with the mediaeval and ancient Roman Empire.

The Empire of Rhomania, circa 1880.
View attachment 826541

There are obviously other cities that could be labelled on here, I just went with three that might be most helpful to include given the scenario.

Now wondering whether I should've done the map in purple rather than blue, to make it clearer this is Rome and not Greece!

Also, the transition from 'Rhoman' to 'Rhomanian' was deliberate - I envisaged 'Rhoman' and 'Rhomaic' as ethnic/linguistic terms, whereas 'Rhomanian' is a nationality ' of or pertaining to the state of Rhomania'. This is, of course, not to be confused with OTL's Romania - ITTL, its equivalent revives and assumes the name 'Dacia' instead.

I would've liked to have gone into more detail about the Phanariotes and the Eastern Orthodox Church in this mini scenario, but I felt there wasn't enough time or space!


- Ilu
While this sounds nice in theory, I don’t see the Morea lasting much longer. It’s eventually going to end up subsumed by the larger Ottoman power like how Theodoro and Trebizond both were.
 
The death of Andronicus III at Pelecanum in 1329 proves to be a pyrrhic victory for the Ottomans who succeed in pushing the Empire permanently off of the Asian mainland, but never gain the toehold in Europe. By 1347, and likely with considerably less controversy, OTL John VI Cantacuzene has ascended the throne with reformists around him including those who were rivals in OTL. He and his successors build and sustain a state that is little more than a Greater Greece, but nonetheless retains Constantinople.
 
Might be a stretch but if the papacy seriously commits everything (not sure how much papal funds you can throw at the issue but i get the feeling early indulgances for the purposes of raising funds to protect the east and preserve the unity of christindom would be received a lot more warmly then otl indulgances) to shoring up the byzantine it may be possible to preserve a Byzantium rump state as late as the 14th century which the papacy would use to attempt to mend the schism and subordinate the Byzantines effectively to the chatholic church out of need for protection. (Byzantium was so desperate near the end that it effectively submitted to papal supremacy out of hopes for protection but without near 100% commitment by all catholic parties the Byzantine position is dire.)
 
Might be a stretch but if the papacy seriously commits everything (not sure how much papal funds you can throw at the issue but i get the feeling early indulgances for the purposes of raising funds to protect the east and preserve the unity of christindom would be received a lot more warmly then otl indulgances) to shoring up the byzantine it may be possible to preserve a Byzantium rump state as late as the 14th century which the papacy would use to attempt to mend the schism and subordinate the Byzantines effectively to the chatholic church out of need for protection. (Byzantium was so desperate near the end that it effectively submitted to papal supremacy out of hopes for protection but without near 100% commitment by all catholic parties the Byzantine position is dire.)
The biggest problem is getting the locals to accept it. And they’re opposed every single attempt by the Byzantine monarchy to accept Catholicism.
 
While this sounds nice in theory, I don’t see the Morea lasting much longer. It’s eventually going to end up subsumed by the larger Ottoman power like how Theodoro and Trebizond both were.

I agree that it's not the most likely scenario. But given that the Danubian Principalities retained some degree of autonomy throughout Ottoman rule in the Balkans, it might just be feasible for the Despotate of the Morea to do the same if they are more useful to the Ottomans as a vassal than as an integral part of the empire. I'm not sure exactly how they could make themselves useful enough to the Porte to accomplish that - perhaps they could offer some military or political advantage somehow?
 
Find way to direct the Turkish demographic pressure elsewhere AND delay the collapse of Imperial authority in western Anatolia AND prevent the emergence of a single unified Turkish polity in Anatolia for long enough , and Constantinople may just hang on in its Thracian core (with or without Thessaly), stuck between Bulgaria, Serbia, Venice and whoever is across the Marmara Sea
 
How about an Empire/Micro State within Constantinople that is an Orthodox 'Vatican City' that is tolerated for some political reason, i.e. for example, to deny Russia it's third Rome claim.
 
It really depends on your definition of a "rump" ERE. At varying points the state controlled so much territory that even a relatively sizable polity would be small compared to historic levels. The issues of terrain as it pertains to the existence of rump states are also not too kind fo the scenario here - Anatolia really either has to be held in one piece or not at all, and most of the Balkans are at least approachable by invading land armies or boats both.

I can think of two scenarios, both partly dependent on definitions of rump state (and one on definition of the Empire itself), that come off as kind of reasonable:
  • For some reason or the other the Empire is able to consistently maintain a presence in the Armenian Highlands and Taurus Mountains, and in so doing keeps a successful hold on Anatolia. That said, varying pressures in Europe lead to the majority of territories in Europe proper being conquered by external powers or breaking away as independent states during periods of imperial weakness. You end up with something ironically quite like modern Türkiye in its borders, consisting of the Anatolian heartland and some bits of Thrace maintaining a buffer region around Constantinople (or if you're feeling particularly ambitious, not even that).
  • Power fails to coalesce in Anatolia in the 13th-15th centuries around singular large factions, and the polity established by the Komnenids in Trebizond is able to eke out a continued existence along the Black Sea Coast, defended from the south by the Pontic Mountains. If you have them successfully [re?]conquer Constantinople and the coastal regions of northern and possibly western Anatolia, this could qualify; alternatively, even a Trebizond that never moves beyond the region of Pontus could be regarded as a rump continuation of the Byzantine Empire in the absence of other claimants.
 
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Okay so I noticed most Byzantine Empire survival scenarios have it continue to survive as a huge empire, but I decided as a really quick AHC while I struggle with writers block on the main TL I'm working on.

Your goal is this
  1. Turn the Byzantine Empire into a tiny rump state
  2. Have this tiny rump state that's still technically the Byzantine Empire survive to the present
How could this happen?
1) This method would not be sustainable. Between the Ottomans pushing across the Dardenelles Straits, Bulgarians and Serbs advancing into Macedonia, Venetians and Genoans grabbing up islands, and the odd Mongol raid or five, even a best case scenario would end with Constantinople falling to one of these enemies-likely the Ottomans.

2) Assuming by some weird stroke of good fortune the Ottomans fail to bring down the walls of Constantinople, Byzantium would still have to come to grips with the Venetians, Genoans, Bulgars, and Serbs. They would have better odds against the Bulgars and Serbs as they would likely go to war just to see who would have the ability to take the city, and Byzantine emperors, continuing the tradition established by their Roman ancestors, could play off one against the other. But against either Venice or Genoa they'd have a harder time. And should both rivals bury the hatchet and agree to partition the rump state, then the emperors would be doomed. It must be said also that even if they avoid coming to blows with the Italian states, three other powers could crush them and prevent them seeing the 1800s, never mind the modern era: Poland-Lithuania, the Hapsburg Monarchy and Russia. If the Hapburgs didn't end them as an independent state, Russia would.
 
One idea I had some time ago and was toying with was somewhat more successful crusades, particularly taking Aleppo instead of failing.

Then, when the Turks come crashing into Anatolia and the Latins and Bulgarians take the Balkans, there's a rump state containing Cilicia, Cyprus, Syria from Antioch to Edessa and Aleppo, and all the way to the south towards Acre
 
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