AHC: Roman Imperial Dynasties = the Chinese Ones

Rex Romanum

Banned
So...what sort of PODs that required to make Roman definition of "dynasty" is same with the Chinese one? I mean, the change of government means the change of the entire empire...
(we sometimes heard Han Chinese, Tang Chinese, Song Chinese, but never heard of Julio-Claudian Romans, Flavian Romans, Nervan-Antonine Romans, etc...)
 
So...what sort of PODs that required to make Roman definition of "dynasty" is same with the Chinese one? I mean, the change of government means the change of the entire empire...
(we sometimes heard Han Chinese, Tang Chinese, Song Chinese, but never heard of Julio-Claudian Romans, Flavian Romans, Nervan-Antonine Romans, etc...)

Making the dynasties last longer would be a start.
 

archaeogeek

Banned
I suspect a different historiography would be a way to actually do it; maybe something à la Dune Codex or any some such "future imperfect" history which erroneously interprets Diocletian's tetrarchy as a "mandate of heaven" type system.
 

Rex Romanum

Banned
Making the dynasties last longer would be a start.

Not necessarily:
Qin Dynasty: 14 years (221 BC - 207 BC)
Sui Dynasty: 37 years (581 AD - 618 AD)
while:
Julio-Claudian dynasty: 95 years (27 AD - 68 AD)
Nervan-Antonine Dynasty: 96 years (96 AD - 192 AD)

I suspect a different historiography would be a way to actually do it; maybe something à la Dune Codex or any some such "future imperfect" history which erroneously interprets Diocletian's tetrarchy as a "mandate of heaven" type system.

Interesting...but why Diocletian? Why not make it earlier, Augustus maybe? Or Vespasian?
 

archaeogeek

Banned
Not necessarily:
Qin Dynasty: 14 years (221 BC - 207 BC)
Sui Dynasty: 37 years (581 AD - 618 AD)
while:
Julio-Claudian dynasty: 95 years (27 AD - 68 AD)
Nervan-Antonine Dynasty: 96 years (96 AD - 192 AD)



Interesting...but why Diocletian? Why not make it earlier, Augustus maybe? Or Vespasian?

I was actually thinking of a period you could cast as the beginning of a warring-states type period. I'm just torn as to how to make it last past the 16th century because at this point you'll need a way for Europe to unite either under a Habsburg or an Osman emperor (for shit and giggles, a Valois).
 
I was actually thinking of a period you could cast as the beginning of a warring-states type period. I'm just torn as to how to make it last past the 16th century because at this point you'll need a way for Europe to unite either under a Habsburg or an Osman emperor (for shit and giggles, a Valois).

Nah, you could have the main Capet line last for far longer, too.
 
The problem with doing this with the Roman Empire is that Dynasties changed without major societal changes. A winning general takes the Imperium. Who cares.

In China, dynasties lasted until overthrown by revolution and then they were replaced. So, they DO form a useful and coherent way of referring to Chinese history.

To make that work, you'd have to change all of Roman history. In particular, the notion that any winning general was able to assume the purple.

I think you'd actually have to go back to the Republican days, and have the State dole out land for troops, not the victorious generals. But if you did THAT, you might not have an 'Empire'. What you might have would be something more like modern France '1st Republic' '2nd Republic', '1st Empire', '3rd Republic' kinds of things...
 
Roman imperial history just doesn't divide well into dynasties, frankly. The problems are:

  • There are a lot of periods where there was no real dynasty (or at least no stable dynasty) in place (69, 193, 238-285, 455-480)
  • Dynasties tended to be extremely short-lived. Yes, there were a number of short-lived Chinese dynasties (the Qin, Xin, and Shun), but they were the exception, not the rule. The average reign of a Chinese dynasty is around 200 years, by my count. Taking the six commonly accepted Roman dynasties (Julio-Claudian, Flavian, Nervan-Antonine, Severan, Constantinian/Neo-Flavian, and Valentinian), you've only got an average reign of 61.5 years. Not a single one of those dynasties remained in power for more than a century.
  • Roman historians tended to adhere to the fiction that they were not living in a monarchy until long after it had ceased to be true. The early emperors cultivated the idea that the essential functions of state were still republican, and (probably more importantly) dates were still reckoned by consular office, not regnal years. This structuring of Roman history is what was handed down to us.
  • As Dathi THorfinnsson suggests, it's not an especially useful shorthand for understanding trends in Roman history. Chinese dynasties tended to change in response to social pressures, so it's convenient to talk about, say, the Yuan Dynasty as the period of Mongol ascendancy. This doesn't work that well for Rome: there's no obvious distinction between Julio-Claudian Rome and Flavian Rome, or Antonine Rome. Only the Neo-Flavians really straddle a potentially significant change in Roman society, but that distinction is probably better described by talking about the Principate versus the Dominate, or even pagan versus Christian Rome.
Roman dynasties tended to be rather shaky affairs in part because there was no universally accepted principle of hereditary succession. In times of peace of stability, sure, it was expected that an emperor's son (biological or adoptive) would inherit the purple, but I wouldn't say that this was a given. It was, in a sense, an offshoot of the ideas of auctoritas and patronage: being related to the previous leader gave you the benefit of the doubt under the presumption that you'd inherited some of the power, prestige, and influence of your predecessor, but beyond that you didn't really have an innate claim on power. If someone proved to be a particularly lousy leader, then there was nothing unusual about him being challenged or overthrown. If you want to get at something approximating the Chinese system, you need to establish a more explicitly monarchical system, where the emperor rules because he's the emperor, not just because he's seen (rightly or wrongly) as the most powerful or capable man in the empire.

To get this, you need to ensure a more dramatic break with the republican past. Which isn't easy, since such a huge part of Roman identity was tied up in republicanism (or the illusion of it, at least). Trying to declare yourself king was a quick way to get yourself assassinated: some of the most despised or controversial people in Roman history were accused, rightly or wrongly, or harboring royal ambitions (Appius Cladius Crassus, Tiberius Sempronius Gracchus, etc.). Fears that Julius Caesar was going to declare himself king played a large part in his death, and Augustus only succeeded in instituting a de facto monarchy because he went out of his way to pretend that he wasn't doing so. Maybe Rome gets defeated or even briefly conquered by a powerful monarchical state during the first or second centuries BC, or a much worse Roman revolution leads to a more thorough and complete discrediting of republican government. But, in that case, while you might get a more openly autocratic and monarchical Rome that you could look at in terms of dynastic periods, it would look quite a bit different from OTL Rome, and I can't imagine there'd be that many familiar faces or families.
 
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