AHC Preserve an independent Welsh kingdom as long as possible

[Count of Crisco]

Following the arrival of the Anglo-Saxons several Cymry petty kingdoms would endure on the periphery of the British isles. With pockets of Welsh resistance gradually being absorbed by the Angles and Saxons, as well as the Picts and later Scots. Eventually England came to dominate the remaining lands in the 16th century.

My challenge is for ways in which a Cymru nation could have retained at least limited independence past the historical point in which they did. Could we get some states in the Hen Ogled surviving into the days of the Norman conquest? Qwynedd and Powys surviving as English vassals into the hundred years war? Or a strong united Wales lasting as a challenger to the English into the early modern era?

 

[Yuhaoyang]

Either prevent the Norman Conquest，which will severely weaken the Kingdom of England's military & colonization ability (and desire) to absorb Wales.
Or let Louis VIII conquer and keep England for Capetian dynasty，so England got a monarchy that would focus on continental affairs and be content with having Welsh princes as its vassal.

 

[Euphemios]

Either prevent the Norman Conquest，which will severely weaken the Kingdom of England's military & colonization ability (and desire) to absorb Wales.

To suggest that the Normans were especially endowed with prowess or desire for the area would be misleading at best. Harold himself would not have been very kind to the Welsh, and he had been occasionally warring there before his succession.

 

[Yuhaoyang]

To suggest that the Normans were especially endowed with prowess or desire for the area would be misleading at best. Harold himself would not have been very kind to the Welsh, and he had been occasionally warring there before his succession.

Actually I know that Harold Godwinson was quite successful against the Welsh，he destroyed Gruffydd ap Llywelyn's kingdom（which almost united Wales）.
But yes，the Normans did have better military technology and colonization machinism than Anglo-Saxons，so they could actually conquer，rather than just subdue，Wakes.

 

[Nedl13]

Maybe you could have the Angevin empire work out, which might make the English monarchs too involved in European affairs, which could mean a rump Welsh state might continue to exist in north Wales for another few hundred years. But this would really just delay the inevitable.

 

[Galba Otho Vitelius]

You need an England screw, and it has to be bad enough to keep going through the industrial revolution.

The problem is that once you get a united England, with a capable ruler, and no distractions elsewhere, absorbing Wales is an obvious strategic move. That is why the Romans went there. You eliminate a potential or actual nuisance and they are strong enough to do it.

Its also hard to maintain independence for the Bretons and the Basques until the present day, for similar strategic reasons.

 

[Elfwine]

If "vassals, but not actually absorbed into England" counts, keeping something like OTL's situation there going at least another generation or two (likely assuming someone not Edward I, and possibly someone not Llywellyn ap Gruffudd) is not out of the question. Edmund might qualify for "competent", but he might be less inclined to go "That's it, we're just annexing Wales." than his brother was if you want a POD over Edward dying.

I don't know i you could keep it "independent" forever, but prioritizing outright conquest over vassal status is not an inevitable immediate outcome whether Normans, Anglo-Saxons, or Anglo-Danish kings.

If a wholly independent Welsh prince is needed, that's going to be tougher with there being English kings to deal with it (even Kings of England and France, because there isn't a sufficient obstacle to conquest by a determined enough and capable enough king that it will absorb that much attention).

 

[Galba Otho Vitelius]

The French kings eventually married Brittany into France, so even if Wales survives as a vassal, at some point the English kings would probably take the marriage route if they got the opportunity, especially as one of the OTL English royal dynasties was Welsh anyway.

 

[Count of Crisco]

The French kings eventually married Brittany into France, so even if Wales survives as a vassal, at some point the English kings would probably take the marriage route if they got the opportunity, especially as one of the OTL English royal dynasties was Welsh anyway.

I am actually leaning towards that option. Wales emerging as an independent kingdom for a longer period, and then later under joint rule by the ruling English king. Possibly maintaining some special status and its own army until some reform like the act of union is passed.

 

[Elfwine]

"Survives as a vassal for some time, then married in" seems pretty viable in most timelines, if sometimes rocky.

I don't know if the English kings would treat it as special once holding both titles, though.

 

[Count of Crisco]

Ssurvives as a vassal for some time, then married in" seems pretty viable in most timelines, if sometimes rocky.

I don't know if the English kings would treat it as special once holding both titles, though.

It could endure I suppose if the English are suitably engaged elsewhere. A Wales with its own army, nobility and citizens who like things that way is alot better on side in the perpetual war with France than rebelling and siding with the garlic chewers. Even if the English ultimately can crush the rebellion and full annex Wales it will come at the cost of distraction from the real main threat.