AHC/PC/WI: Anglo-Prussian Relations

[Mr. BoJangles]

This is a multi-part thread with several questions. I am bringing it up here because the necessary POD would have to take place before 1900 in order for the eventual result.

1. Is it possible for Britain to be member of the Central Powers during World War I?
2. Can Bismarck (or anyone from Prussia) form Großdeutschland and keep religious conflict to a minimum?
3. Can the minority populations in this German Empire be content with German rule?

 

[Thoresby]

This is a multi-part thread with several questions. I am bringing it up here because the necessary POD would have to take place before 1900 in order for the eventual result.

1. Is it possible for Britain to be member of the Central Powers during World War I?
2. Can Bismarck (or anyone from Prussia) form Großdeutschland and keep religious conflict to a minimum?
3. Can the minority populations in this German Empire be content with German rule?

1.) Yes, Britain is always going to want to maintain the balance of power on the continent and prevent anyone from becoming too strong so if you make the Franco-Russian Alliance look more threatening, for example by giving Tsarist Russia another decade of it's pre-WW1 breakneck growth then Britain will switch sides. Also there are plenty of Colonial opportunities to throw spanners in the Entente, despite the Kings Francophillia.

2.) Yes, the Kulturkampf was to an extent inevitable, the power of the Catholic Church was simply unacceptable to the Lutheran Prussians but it could have been shorter and less virulent.

3.) Some can, Jewish Germans for example are absolutely no problem, the Poles on the other hand...

 

[Corder]

I'll speak to question 1:

Its unlikely for a number of reasons - the Balance of Power (Germany is Europe's Industrial Power house so with UK-Empire support it would steamroller its opponents); naval rivalry (Germany has gone out of its way to challenge UK's control of the seas though it is neither in Germany's interests nor was it part of Bismark's plan); the young Kaiser seems to have had a bit of a chip on his shoulder about Britain.

Its not impossible however because, in imperial terms, France and particularly Russia remained the biggest threats to Britain's empire. Joe Chamberlain flirted with the notion of a German alliance and the Anglo-German plan to partion the Portugeuse Empire is an example of their ability to co-operate.

If Germany is a smaller power in 1914, or if France violates Belgian neutrality, or Germany avoids the naval race perhaps the UK can be brought it but its difficult.

 

[Grey Wolf]

Fashoda and the Niger Crisis were the height of Anglo-French colonial hostility, and IMHO you'd need to have this explode, even if only into a short sharp shooting war that the politicians cool down. That would probably be enough to antagonise the French into an unfriendly position during the Boer War, and even with Edward VII's accession the idea of a British-French alliance won't be looked on with much favour.

There was talk 1900, 1901 of an Anglo-German alliance with some politicians (Joseph Chamberlain?) favouring it, so add in a shooting war against the French and it might have had more legs.

Given both of these, Britain is going to look much less favourably on Russia and France during the Russo-Japanese War and probably protest much more strongly the use of French bases in Madagascar and Indo-China by Rozhestvensky and his fleet. It would be ironic if this prevents him from reaching the Far East at all, tho!

Internally, there were already changes in the federal empire under way by 1914 - for example Brunswick had been restored to sovereignty after the marriage of the Kaiser's daughter. There was some talk that Hannover might one day be allowed this. And of course the other, constant, question was over the anomalous 'imperial province' of Alsace-Lorraine. If this had been turned into a sovereign state, maybe a duchy under an acceptable ruler (a minor Habsburg?) then it would go some way towards alleviating the concerns of the French minority

Best Regards
Grey Wolf

 

[Mikestone8]

Depends when "WW1" happens. If it's a generation earlier than OTL, before Germany emerges as a naval and colonial rival to Britain, then GB could be pro-German or at least neutral.

 

[Thoresby]

Its unlikely for a number of reasons - the Balance of Power (Germany is Europe's Industrial Power house so with UK-Empire support it would steamroller its opponents); naval rivalry (Germany has gone out of its way to challenge UK's control of the seas though it is neither in Germany's interests nor was it part of Bismark's plan); the young Kaiser seems to have had a bit of a chip on his shoulder about Britain.

The Naval Race definitely has to go for an alliance and that means Kaiser Will probably has to go as well, he loved battleships and had a major chip on his shoulder re:Britain. However the Balance of Power issue wasn't set in stone. German is always going to outweigh France post 1870 but it's not destined to outweigh Russia. Russia in 1914 was like China today, still backward, poor and autocratic, seeming solid on the surface but unstable underneath and with a booming economy and enormous potential. If peace lasts for a decade then Russia will be catching up fast with Germany industrially and when combined with France will outweigh it by a significant margin.
In such a scenario if Germany hasn't done anything stupid; i.e. building a High Seas Fleet aimed squarely at Britain, and assuming French ambitions in Africa and Indochina and Russian ambitions in Central Asia and the Far East don't disappear (which they won't) then an alliance shift is more likely than not imho.
Better for a German dominated Europe than France and Russia carving up Europe and the world between them.

 

[Will Kürlich Kerl]

The Naval Race definitely has to go for an alliance and that means Kaiser Will probably has to go as well, he loved battleships and had a major chip on his shoulder re:Britain.

Es Geloybte Aretz - a Germanwank

 

[Mr. BoJangles]

Can you keep the naval build-up intact without it threatening the British?

And what of Wilhelm himself. Say he isnt born under the same circumstances. His relationship with his mother and all that.

 

[Dathi THorfinnsson]

Grossdeutschland isnt going to happen without some strange pods.

Germany wanted Austria and Bohemia, and nothing else. The Austrians wanted all of their empire in or none of it.

Youd have to get the hungarians to break away entirely, and probably form a republic, for the Austrians to even consider the idea.

 

[Thoresby]

Can you keep the naval build-up intact without it threatening the British?

Yes and No. Britain would have no objection to Germany building a large navy, France had one and while it was bandied around as a threat it wasn't a major issue because the French Navy had a clear purpose, connecting France to it's Empire and securing the sea lanes. It had a sensible number of cruisers and destroyers, it was based around the French Empire and the ships with long legs making them suitable for their role. The French also had a battlefleet but everyone did. Anyway it was much smaller and weaker than the RN.

The German OTL Hochseeflotte had literally one purpose, a do or die mass fleet engagement against the RN in the North Sea. It couldn't do anything else, it was mostly made up of battleships and they were short ranged. Barely 2% was based in the German Empire which was anyway tiny and didn't really need all that much protecting. Anyone with even a basic understanding of naval strategy and in 1910 that was a surprisingly large number of people in Britain considering the degree of public interest in the fleet recognised the Hochseeflotte for what it was, a pistol aimed at the heart of the British Empire.
Now if the Kaiserreich under any leadership decided in 1900 to build up it's navy so it was commensurate with it's world status than there would inevitably be a British reaction. But if the fleet was a more balanced, Imperially focused force with fewer battleships and more cruisers and supply ships, if the ships were built with longer range and the ability to operate outside the North Sea then British reaction would be grumpy as the Naval Estimates would have to go up in order to maintain the two power standard but there wouldn't be an enormous fuss. This would be simply another element of Germany acquiring the trappings of a Great Power, it already had the Colonies and now it was getting a fleet capable of gunboat diplomacy. Well that's life.

 

[Mr. BoJangles]

Grossdeutschland isnt going to happen without some strange pods.

Germany wanted Austria and Bohemia, and nothing else. The Austrians wanted all of their empire in or none of it.

Youd have to get the hungarians to break away entirely, and probably form a republic, for the Austrians to even consider the idea.

That is precisely one concept I was toying with... but not in the same way...

Yes and No. Britain would have no objection to Germany building a large navy, France had one and while it was bandied around as a threat it wasn't a major issue because the French Navy had a clear purpose, connecting France to it's Empire and securing the sea lanes. It had a sensible number of cruisers and destroyers, it was based around the French Empire and the ships with long legs making them suitable for their role. The French also had a battlefleet but everyone did. Anyway it was much smaller and weaker than the RN.

The German OTL Hochseeflotte had literally one purpose, a do or die mass fleet engagement against the RN in the North Sea. It couldn't do anything else, it was mostly made up of battleships and they were short ranged. Barely 2% was based in the German Empire which was anyway tiny and didn't really need all that much protecting. Anyone with even a basic understanding of naval strategy and in 1910 that was a surprisingly large number of people in Britain considering the degree of public interest in the fleet recognised the Hochseeflotte for what it was, a pistol aimed at the heart of the British Empire.
Now if the Kaiserreich under any leadership decided in 1900 to build up it's navy so it was commensurate with it's world status than there would inevitably be a British reaction. But if the fleet was a more balanced, Imperially focused force with fewer battleships and more cruisers and supply ships, if the ships were built with longer range and the ability to operate outside the North Sea then British reaction would be grumpy as the Naval Estimates would have to go up in order to maintain the two power standard but there wouldn't be an enormous fuss. This would be simply another element of Germany acquiring the trappings of a Great Power, it already had the Colonies and now it was getting a fleet capable of gunboat diplomacy. Well that's life.

So Yes. But it brings with it other necessities. One of which being a bigger colonial empire. Likely at the expense of the Dutch.

Or one of assimilation? Could the Dutch Colonial Empire be included in this as well (as a part of, what in this case could be called, Ultra-Deutschland)?

 

[Grey Wolf]

Can you keep the naval build-up intact without it threatening the British?

Well, initially its not a threat. It might be AIMING to be one, but when it consists of only a few classes of pre-dreadnoughts in the early part of the century its not achieved threat status yet

Best Regards
Grey Wolf

 

[Mr. BoJangles]

GW, the challenge in this case would be to have a Kreigsmarine that can challenge the RN due to it's sheer numbers, and classes, But instead have a political situation where both The British and the Germans see the other not as a threat, but as a force multiplier as a result of closer relations and the aforementioned navies.

As an additional area of curiosity, A unified kingdom of Scandinavia that could also be a part of the alliance. Unifying the four Kingdoms and maybe having a colonial empire of it's own?