AHC: Movable Type Printing Press Invented In 1350 in England, Not 1450 in Germany

Since, iirc, the actual press portion of the printing press was taken from the wine industry, this might be difficult. Germany has a large wine industry, England doesnt.

This is an interesting factor (while England did had a relativly important wine production at this point). As well enough mettalurgic knowledge for use of metal letters, with enough chemical knowledge to work about ink.
Basically ask for investors in this (not only for prime invention, but for widespread use), while England at this point needed ressources for HYW.
 
This is an interesting factor (while England did had a relativly important wine production at this point). As well enough mettalurgic knowledge for use of metal letters, with enough chemical knowledge to work about ink.
Basically ask for investors in this (not only for prime invention, but for widespread use), while England at this point needed ressources for HYW.

I read that Gutenberg also could have been inspired by the paper presses that were in Germany in the 14th century, but I don't know how widespread they were in England at the time.
 
I read that Gutenberg also could have been inspired by the paper presses that were in Germany in the 14th century, but I don't know how widespread they were in England at the time.

It gradually arrived in Europe from South and trade roads : Mediterranean coast, Rhine, etc.
IIRC you had such in England relativly late, XVth, maybe later XVth.
Thing is, the devellopement of paper industry was quite tied with the devellopment of printing industry, both supporting each other.
 
The is a theory (with some evidence supporting it) that the original printing press with movable type was invented by a Dutch artisan named Laurens Janszoon Koster around 1440, but was stolen by an associate of Gutenberg named Johannes Faust, metal type and all, and brought to him where they claimed credit for the invention, a dozen years later in 1452.

So if this is true, perhaps the stolen technology makes its way from Haarlem to London instead of Mainz, with an Englishman claiming credit for the invention? The PoD would not be a century earlier than its "invention" OTL, instead being only a dozen years earlier, but the PoD itself would simply be a change in the thief's travels after the theft.
 
Since, iirc, the actual press portion of the printing press was taken from the wine industry, this might be difficult. Germany has a large wine industry, England doesnt.

Okay, let's remove England from the equation then. What would it take to get the printing press invented 100 years earlier, by 1350, and by someone else, rather than in 1450 by Johann Gutenberg? I'm trying to orchestrate a successful Lollard movement in England, and to do this, they're gonna need printing presses in England by 1350, if not before. The technology needs to be exported to England by someone or some group in central Europe. I'm attempting to get Wycliffe's movement to gain more traction with the learned elite and a printing press would help him remain in his Oxford foothold for at least a while.
 
Spain has a significant wine industry, and paper mills reached Spain significantly earlier than the rest of Europe, in the mid-1100s, so those factors could encourage an earlier printing press in Spain. The issue is finding investors, as Spain is pretty heavily involved in peninsular wars at the time, so an earlier Reconquista might help encourage innovation. I'm not sure how you could export it from there to England though, seeing as they don't have any significant connections, but I suppose it could go through France and then to England.
 
Spain has a significant wine industry, and paper mills reached Spain significantly earlier than the rest of Europe, in the mid-1100s, so those factors could encourage an earlier printing press in Spain. The issue is finding investors, as Spain is pretty heavily involved in peninsular wars at the time, so an earlier Reconquista might help encourage innovation. I'm not sure how you could export it from there to England though, seeing as they don't have any significant connections, but I suppose it could go through France and then to England.

Might be able to sneak it over the Pyrenees. Then into the hands of Englishman operating in France. I wonder if it could safely get out of Spain, through France, then across the channel before the Hundred Years War...
 
The is a theory (with some evidence supporting it) that the original printing press with movable type was invented by a Dutch artisan named Laurens Janszoon Koster around 1440, but was stolen by an associate of Gutenberg named Johannes Faust, metal type and all, and brought to him where they claimed credit for the invention, a dozen years later in 1452.
That's a little hard to believe, given the evidence that movable type had already been invented in China (admittedly using unwieldy clay types) and Korea (this time with metal type) centuries before.

Seriously, I don't see how an earlier metal movable-type printing press in Europe can be discussed without the suggestion that Europe look to the countries that already had it. It would be far easier for Europe to take the idea from Asia. Maybe an alternate traveler in the style of Marco Polo brings the idea to Europe?
 
Seriously, I don't see how an earlier metal movable-type printing press in Europe can be discussed without the suggestion that Europe look to the countries that already had it. It would be far easier for Europe to take the idea from Asia. Maybe an alternate traveler in the style of Marco Polo brings the idea to Europe?

Problem is Asian typography was rarely used : it didn't fared well with Chinese cultural features, while xylography was far more widespread.
 
when the wine industry and metallurgical requirements are combined how early could it be invented?

Could the romans have invented it?
 
when the wine industry and metallurgical requirements are combined how early could it be invented?
Mechanisation, paper, mettalurgy? Not before the XIIIth, I would say, pushing it. An earlier XVth discovery may be more possible. I don't think the XIVth, knowing a major crisis, would be a good room for breaking social inventions.

Could the romans have invented it?
Not without paper, I think.
 
Is there a plausible way to get Marco Polo himself to acquire the Korean printing technology? Would he need to venture to Korea to get it or could he pick it up in Beijing and literally bring it back with him? I need it brought over to England by 1350. This is my "deadline."
 
Is there a plausible way to get Marco Polo himself to acquire the Korean printing technology? Would he need to venture to Korea to get it or could he pick it up in Beijing and literally bring it back with him? I need it brought over to England by 1350. This is my "deadline."

I don't think the technology was wide spread enough in Korea itself for it to have spread to China, to be honest.
 
I don't think the technology was wide spread enough in Korea itself for it to have spread to China, to be honest.

What if Marco Polo wanted to continue on to Japan? What would draw him there in the first place? In his travels overland, could he have used the Korean Peninsula to cross over the Sea of Japan, and then make his way back to Venice from Japan rather than from China? Could he have picked up the printing press technology while in Korea and then just brought it back with him to duplicate it?
 
I think it would have necessited that he could first take one all along the way back, would he had the possibility to do so (or actually see the interest of it : there's many chinese features he didn't took back in Europe, as inoculation against smallpox, land mine or rockets, etc.

Even with that, you'd still need a quicker spread of paper production in Europe, and particularly in England (that didn't was a thing before the XVth century there). Without paper, printing press is only a huge useless contraption.

Assuming you've that, what Marco Polo would have carried would be xylography, not typography.
(EDIT : missed the Korean part, never mind the last sentence. I would point however, that Polo was in service of the emperor at this time, and that it let him little room to make errands in Korea)
 
What if Marco Polo wanted to continue on to Japan? What would draw him there in the first place? In his travels overland, could he have used the Korean Peninsula to cross over the Sea of Japan, and then make his way back to Venice from Japan rather than from China? Could he have picked up the printing press technology while in Korea and then just brought it back with him to duplicate it?

The Korean Peninsula had been devastated by seven major campaigns conducted by the Mongols from 1231-57, and it was not until 1258 that the last military dictator was assassinated, allowing the court to surrender to the Mongols in the following year. However, the military faction still continued to interfere in Goryeo politics, and when Marco Polo arrived (around 1271-5), Korea was still reeling from a recent uprising by a breakaway military faction that raged on from 1270-3. Although there are no extant census records from the time period, it is certain that millions of Koreans died between 1231 and 1273, despite the fact that the country's population probably numbered only around 8-10 million before the war. The countryside would also have been severely devastated, given that several of the campaigns swept through the entire peninsula, while expenditures would have been run into the ground. In other words, Korea would have been too busy with military affairs at the time to even think about investing significantly in printing technology (most were woodblocks), while the vast majority of the materials involved would have been destroyed during the war. In addition, attempting to travel directly to Japan would have been virtually impossible, given that relations between the Yuan and Japan were quickly severed after two failed Mongol invasions of Japan in 1274 and 1281.

For comparison, Marco Polo's father and uncle were born around 1230, and first traveled to China in the mid-1260s, while Marco Polo first visited around 1271-5, and left in 1292.

As a result, ignoring the fact that Kublai Khan would most likely have prevented Marco Polo from traveling far abroad (mostly due to security reasons), even if he had somehow managed to travel to Korea or Japan, the existing conditions within both at the time would have made it virtually impossible for him to bring back anything significantly useful.

EDIT: I ignored the Tripitaka Koreana because it was composed of a large series of woodblock carvings, instead of utilizing (metal) movable type, but I realized that it would also have been a major reason for preventing Korea from pursuing further innovations at the time. The Buddhist scriptures were composed of more than 81,000 wooden printing blocks, totaling over 6,500 volumes, and were meticulously hand-carved from 1236-51 (16 years) with the aim of divine intervention against the Mongols, as the original version that had been carved during war with the Khitan had mostly been destroyed in 1232 during the second Mongol invasion. The project was so vast in its scope that it drained the country's dwindling resources, sparking discontent among the populace, while modern versions of the tripitaka in Korea, China, Japan, and Taiwan still rely on this version.

As a result, attempting to compile any separate volume(s) of text (on any subject) through moveable type at the time would have been unthinkable, as the latter would have much more expensive just to set up, while the decades-long war, tribute sent to the Mongols, and ships constructed to aid the Mongols for two expeditions against Japan, would also have left virtually no expenditures to utilize until 1290-1300 or so, when the peninsula would have somewhat recovered. Even if Marco Polo did wish to visit Ganghwa Island, where the woodblocks would have been stored (the carvings were later moved further south in 1398), his request would have been turned down due to the fact that they had been carved at a time of national crisis, which would temporarily have made the collection a national secret in order to prevent similar catastrophes from happening again.
 
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It depends of the PoD.
Would the PoD itself be the invention of printing press, I would say that it would be too fast for a safe widespread anyway.

An earlier local production of paper in England is mandatory, but I won't see it being that quicker than IOTL. Maybe the XIVth century instead of the late XVth, admittedly.
With that, and without HYW, you may have an earlier printing press appearing around mid XIVth century, relativly plausibly outside England (maybe Upper Rhine) and being present in England between the latter half of XIV up to XV in some places.

Remember that first printing locations were essentially due to an inverstor presence, and patronage. It really took decades to have it being relativly widespread, understanding that almost all of these printings were outside "heterodoxial hands" but people close either to rulers, economic elite, clergy, etc.

Furthermore, the problem with Lollards was less how to widespread their ideas, than these being irreconciliable with the contemporary society or at least powerful elites. Not that a more widespread presence of written texts would hurt of course, but literacy being essentially a clerical thing outside rulers. I could see urban patricians being more touched, but it doesn't look like they had enough military power on them.

At this point, as you seem to want to do it since some times, I'll advise you to not care about PoD plausibility that much, and to argue of an earlier invention in Frisia without HYW diverting ressources.
 
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