AHC: Most Successful Post-Apartheid South Africa Possible

What do you see as far as the major ways the Los Angeles Olympics were the politics of distraction?
The Los Angeles Olympics were preceded by months of police actions in many parts of Los Angeles, and this being the Daryl Gates era LAPD, these were not exactly nicely done, and in the years afterwards the LAPD and LASD gained a bad reputation for brutality and violence that ultimately directly led to what happened to Rodney King in March 1991, which in turn led to the LA Riots the following year. The Games themselves were very well done and well organized, but the effects on a lot of minority members of Southern California society rather wasn't.

It wasn't the politics of distraction, no, but the politics of people who had little respect for the people they were supposed to be serving.
 
The Los Angeles Olympics were preceded by months of police actions in many parts of Los Angeles, and this being the Daryl Gates era LAPD, these were not exactly nicely done, and in the years afterwards the LAPD and LASD gained a bad reputation for brutality and violence that ultimately directly led to what happened to Rodney King in March 1991,
Ouch.

Thank you for explaining this, and I think this unfortunately does pretty much describe reality. In addition, I’ve read it was “thin” policing, meaning in both money and staffing and they tried to make up with brutality.
 
And regarding the money spent to host major sports events, there are exceptions. For example, I think the 1992 Barcelona Olympics turned a small profit.

And I hope the South African 2010 World Cup was closer to an exception.
 
2) Educate the populace. Far too many black South Africans gave up their education to fight apartheid injustices. This ended up being bad for them in the long run as once apartheid was over they had few skills to build a life with. This has been a major part of South Africa's modern crime problem,as many of these people have had to resort to theft to survive. The country needs to educate these people to the greatest degree they can, no matter if that's university education or just allowing some to have enough knowledge to get a decent job. That's gonna be a medium-term goal, along with:



4) STOP CORRUPTION. I'm bolding this one big time because the real and perceived corruption in South Africa is a major, major problem. The ANC's dominant position in the country's politics does not help with this, but it still needs to be done to keep the business community, investors and society as a whole happy. Nobody likes corruption.

I'm only an outsider, but it's interesting that what my in-laws say confirms your points. My wife was born in an SA family that had an open anti-apartheid stance since the early 1900s (her great-great uncle was John X Merriman) but when we've been there to visit her family it's been depressing to see the pessimism they now have for the short term prospects of the country and about the ANC's corruption and competence. My wife's cousin was editor of a major opposition newspaper in SA, and I think in the end it was the corruption that wore him down to the stage where he left the country to take up a role with the UNHCR. I can recall going to his place and being warned that he wouldn't answer the door until he was sure it was us, as he had recently had yet more death threats from organised crime. It was an interesting insight into the place.

Another in-law is working in teacher education and notes that the apartheidt regime kept the level of education of black teachers so low that fixing things will take more than one generation. It's hard for teachers to lift the education level of the kids when the teachers are poorly educated themselves.

I think that the in-laws would say that the best POD for a more successful post-apartheid SA would ideally start much earlier (which is probably obvious) but with education as perhaps the No. 1 ingredient. While depriving people of education is one way to try to control them, it doesn't seem to be the best way the old regime could have chosen even for their own interests.
 
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While depriving people of education is one way to try to control them, it doesn't seem to be the best way the old regime could have chosen even for their own interests.
I'm not sure about that. One of my university lecturers used to call subjects like philosophy, politics, and economics "the dangerous subjects". He pointed out that repressive regimes were often okay with their people going abroad to study science or engineering or something, but not the humanities. My understanding of his point is that engineering etc may teach you how to do something, but the humanities will teach you why you should or shouldn't do it. These repressive regimes don't want their people to learn that other forms of society are possible or desirable. Perhaps the old South African regime had similar thoughts.

And, as an aside, isn't it interesting how anglosphere education increasingly prioritises the STEM subjects and deprecates humanities, while many governments are suffering legitimacy crises and discontent with current social structures continues to grow..?
 
How about border control? I've read that there's something like 8-15 million undocumented immigrants in South Africa. For a country with an official population of only 58 million that's uh that's a lot.
 

Typho

Banned
How about border control? I've read that there's something like 8-15 million undocumented immigrants in South Africa. For a country with an official population of only 58 million that's uh that's a lot.
Did the migrants come after apartheid? Because I think the previous system wanted as much labor as possible.
 
Ouch.

Thank you for explaining this, and I think this unfortunately does pretty much describe reality. In addition, I’ve read it was “thin” policing, meaning in both money and staffing and they tried to make up with brutality.
That's quite true. Ultimately, it was a collection of interlocking problems that led to that point. Proposition 13 in California, which passed in 1978, caused a huge cut in the budgets of the LAPD and LASD just before crack cocaine came to the streets of the city, a bad combination that meant a big rise in property crime (addicts needing to get money for a fix) just as the police presence had to be thinned for budget reasons. As you say, the LAPD fought back through attempting to intimidate those they felt (rightly or wrongly) were part of the crime problem, but this served to grow the gap between the police forces and the people they served.
I'm only an outsider, but it's interesting that what my in-laws say confirms your points. My wife was born in an SA family that had an open anti-apartheid stance since the early 1900s (her great-great uncle was John X Merriman) but when we've been there to visit her family it's been depressing to see the pessimism they now have for the short term prospects of the country and about the ANC's corruption and competence. My wife's cousin was editor of a major opposition newspaper in SA, and I think in the end it was the corruption that wore him down to the stage where he left the country to take up a role with the UNHCR. I can recall going to his place and being warned that he wouldn't answer the door until he was sure it was us, as he had recently had yet more death threats from organised crime. It was an interesting insight into the place.
I'm not surprised by that. South Africa's crime problem is a real one, though in fairness there is something of a disconnect in a way - the police forces in South Africa during apartheid days were regularly used as tools of oppression, and thus the vast majority of the country's population would never call them unless it was absolutely necessary, which is a big help to criminals, and when I was there in 1997 even then vigilantism and tit-for-tat responses to crime were sadly too common, something the government has been trying to sort out since the end of apartheid.
Another in-law is working in teacher education and notes that the apartheidt regime kept the level of education of black teachers so low that fixing things will take more than one generation. It's hard for teachers to lift the education level of the kids when the teachers are poorly educated themselves.

I think that the in-laws would say that the best POD for a more successful post-apartheid SA would ideally start much earlier (which is probably obvious) but with education as perhaps the No. 1 ingredient. While depriving people of education is one way to try to control them, it doesn't seem to be the best way the old regime could have chosen even for their own interests.
I agree. The ideal scenario (as I see it) is for apartheid to disappear by the mid-1970s, because up until that point the country's economic growth post-WWII had been very, very quick and had by the 1960s created a sizable middle class among all races. In 1970 SA had an unemployment across all races in the single digits (it stayed this way until 1981 according to government statistics, though this is again probably an underestimate) and while as you say there was a vast disconnect between the whites (who had a higher standard of living than just about anywhere else in the world at that point), by the 1960s even blacks were benefitting too, even as the leadership of Hendrik Verwoerd pushed for the idea of ultimately pushing blacks out to the Bantu countries with the long-term goal of them getting independence. (I've never thought this workable, as these small, resource-poor countries would always struggle to advance themselves in meaningful ways.) South Africa's powerful trade unions came during this time period as well.

As I see it, ideally Pretoria would realize by the 1960s that the idea of total apartheid is unworkable - how do you have blacks working with whites but not having any contact with them aside from that? - and instead advance the idea of them being the African state that is well run, not having to deal with Marxist-leaning governments (which were depressingly common in Africa during that time period) or colonialism, as was the case in Angola and Mozambique (and, to a point, Rhodesia as well). The idea would be best described as "In South Africa, we're making things bigger and better for everyone." This would require a major growth in the country's educational system starting in the 1960s, but financially this is doable. Start off the process of fixing the infrastructure issues by scrapping the Group Areas Act (which by 1970 was starting to be ignored in any case) and extending services to as many of the underserved areas as possible. Toss the pass laws immediately, and as quickly as is feasible scrap the petty apartheid laws (some will be able to be shed earlier than others, as South Africa was and is still somewhat of a conservative country when it comes to social norms, so the laws over the likes of interracial marriages may be more tough to scrap than others) and the most troublesome aspects of segregation - gathering places, public transportation, parks and recreational facilities, hospitals and ambulances - and allow police officers of all races to do their jobs without worrying about the skin color of those they interacted with. (As ridiculous as it sounds, black South African police officers couldn't arrest whites until the end of apartheid. Like, how do they enforce the law then?)
 
Immigration would be very hard to control, since South Africa is vast, and much of it is wilderness. Hard to monitor who goes in or out.
A sizable portion of the border is made up by the Limpopo, Orange and Marico rivers and there are limited border crossings in many areas here, and the Limpopo marks the entire border with Zimbabwe, so that's less of an issue than it might otherwise be.

@SealTheRealDeal You are correct that the issues in Zimbabwe have been a major factor in illegal immigration to SA, as Mozambique's issues were before then. South Africa's wealth means that you will unavoidably get people coming from other parts of Africa (this was the case during apartheid, too), but the flip side of this is also true - a prosperous South Africa will surely lead to better standards of living in its neighbors unless they are being deliberately malicious towards their own people (as was the case in Zimbabwe under Mugabe). Botswana is very well off IOTL, Namibia is hugely divided by wealth but has potential and keeping Zimbabwe from blowing all the way up isn't that hard.
 

Typho

Banned
A sizable portion of the border is made up by the Limpopo, Orange and Marico rivers and there are limited border crossings in many areas here, and the Limpopo marks the entire border with Zimbabwe, so that's less of an issue than it might otherwise be.

@SealTheRealDeal You are correct that the issues in Zimbabwe have been a major factor in illegal immigration to SA, as Mozambique's issues were before then. South Africa's wealth means that you will unavoidably get people coming from other parts of Africa (this was the case during apartheid, too), but the flip side of this is also true - a prosperous South Africa will surely lead to better standards of living in its neighbors unless they are being deliberately malicious towards their own people (as was the case in Zimbabwe under Mugabe). Botswana is very well off IOTL, Namibia is hugely divided by wealth but has potential and keeping Zimbabwe from blowing all the way up isn't that hard.
Why wasn't there a lot of illegal/immigration from Rhodesia to South Africa?
 
Didn't Zuma in part get the job because the powers that be decided that it was time for a Zulu to be in charge? Skipping over him in favor of someone like Ramaphosa (who's probably about as good as you're going to get from this incarnation of the ANC) would have been an unmitigated good thing.

Perhaps as part of the transition away from Apartheid, a provision be put in that for the first 25 years, any legislation must receive at least 5% support from an opposition party. That would force more consensus into the system, in theory and curb some of the worst ANC impulses, like, say, getting rid of the elite anti-corruption task forces under Zuma.
'The powers that be'? Do you mean the ordinary ANC members who voted for him at the 2007 ANC national conference?
 
How about border control? I've read that there's something like 8-15 million undocumented immigrants in South Africa. For a country with an official population of only 58 million that's uh that's a lot.
That is a load of rubbish. Upper estimates of migrants in SA puts them at about three million.
 
'The powers that be'? Do you mean the ordinary ANC members who voted for him at the 2007 ANC national conference?
Weren't there shenanigans around nominations for Deputy President at the ANC Conference in 1997 that kept Winnie Mandela from running and set Zuma up as Deputy President (and heir apparent) to Mbeki? That's what I'm referencing there.
 
Weren't there shenanigans around nominations for Deputy President at the ANC Conference in 1997 that kept Winnie Mandela from running and set Zuma up as Deputy President (and heir apparent) to Mbeki? That's what I'm referencing there.
Winnie was never close to being elected, she didn't have much support.

I believe Thabo Mbeki wanted Joel Netshitenzhe, who was the brains behind much of ANC policy, to be his Deputy, but Netshitenzhe is not a guy who liked the limelight so declined.

When he became Deputy there was probably an element of putting him in the position because he was a Zulu (the scars from the KZN violence were still raw at the time) but he became ANC head fair-and-square in 2007.
 
Winnie was never close to being elected, she didn't have much support.
Winnie always struck me as being a bit of an odd woman out in the post-apartheid world of South African politics. I've always thought that was a direct result of her and her supporters' actions in Soweto in the 1980s and the corruption charges she got busted for.
I believe Thabo Mbeki wanted Joel Netshitenzhe, who was the brains behind much of ANC policy, to be his Deputy, but Netshitenzhe is not a guy who liked the limelight so declined.

When he became Deputy there was probably an element of putting him in the position because he was a Zulu (the scars from the KZN violence were still raw at the time) but he became ANC head fair-and-square in 2007.
That's pretty much how I saw it too. Zuma, for all of his many, many faults, got that position fair and square.
 
Why wasn't there a lot of illegal/immigration from Rhodesia to South Africa?
For a black man, going from Ian Smith's Rhodesia to Apartheid South Africa really was going from a fire into a frying pan, you're still gonna get burned either way so what's the point? For a white man, beyond the fact that there weren't many Whites in Rhodesia to begin with, many of those who couldn't stomach being in Zimbabwe DID go to South Africa, though many more ended up in Australia or the UK or Canada.
 
For a black man, going from Ian Smith's Rhodesia to Apartheid South Africa really was going from a fire into a frying pan, you're still gonna get burned either way so what's the point? For a white man, beyond the fact that there weren't many Whites in Rhodesia to begin with, many of those who couldn't stomach being in Zimbabwe DID go to South Africa, though many more ended up in Australia or the UK or Canada.
Counterintuitively, there were quite a lot of black people from neighbouring countries who came to South Africa, even during apartheid. SA had a much bigger economy and for all the restrictions and awfulness of apartheid a black person would probably still have a higher wage in SA than in most jobs in SA's neighbours. Grace Mugabe's parents were working in SA when she was born, some sources actually have her having being born in my hometown.

There was also lots of white Zimbo migration to SA, especially post-1980.
 
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