raharris1973
Gone Fishin'
WI the Japanese allied with France in the Sino-French war?
In OTL the two danced around the idea of an alliance in 1885.
The problem was that France wanted to ally early, when they were not doing as well, but Japan was afraid to fight China then. But after the French did well, Japan wanted to join them, but the French no longer wanted or needed Japanese help. If we could somehow make for a period of overlapping interest in both France and Japan in an alliance, that could help Japan get Korea (and maybe Taiwan) 10 years early. And at the same time, the alliance with France provides diplomatic cover for Japan, making it less likely to face anything like the Triple Intervention, and the net effect is Japan feels pretty good never having had to back down and being allied to at the time the 2nd greatest naval power.
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If we were to trace the power comparison between China and Japan, it seems that the Chinese had a perceived superiority in their own eyes and in the eyes of 3rd parties in the 1880s, and even up until Japan defeated their fleet in 1894.
I think China, in terms of certain naval equipment, was ahead of Japan, simply because it had a bigger budget to work with. (Poor implementation of training and maintenance in fact erased this paper superiority)
However, I am thinking that China still must have only started acquiring modern ships and weapons only later than Japan, because in the 1870s, China was passive about Japanese actions in Korea and Taiwan, and the Ryukyus. China had a respectable record of dealing with non-European enemies, on land, in the 20 years after defeating the Taipings, crushing Muslim rebels and deterring the Russian occupation of Ili, but China seemed strangely passive about Japan's takeover of the Ryukyus.
In the 1870s Japan also seems to have been worthy of at least some respect by Europeans because when the Russians wanted to claim sole custody of Sakhalin, they were willing to trade the Kuril islands they held to Japan in order to get it. If they truly though Japan was a non-factor, the Russians would have just taken all Sakhalin and offered the Japanese nothing in return.
The thing about Japan before it's China and Russia wars is that it had not "proved itself" and logically would have been much weaker 10 or 20 years before, yet in terms of power projection, the Europeans were also weaker 10 or 20 years before. For instance, before they built up Qingdao and Port Arthur, the Germans and Russians were heavily dependent on the port facilities of -Yokohama, Japan to operate their fleets in the Pacific. So in that sense, Japan had a position of strength earlier on.
In OTL the two danced around the idea of an alliance in 1885.
The problem was that France wanted to ally early, when they were not doing as well, but Japan was afraid to fight China then. But after the French did well, Japan wanted to join them, but the French no longer wanted or needed Japanese help. If we could somehow make for a period of overlapping interest in both France and Japan in an alliance, that could help Japan get Korea (and maybe Taiwan) 10 years early. And at the same time, the alliance with France provides diplomatic cover for Japan, making it less likely to face anything like the Triple Intervention, and the net effect is Japan feels pretty good never having had to back down and being allied to at the time the 2nd greatest naval power.
----
If we were to trace the power comparison between China and Japan, it seems that the Chinese had a perceived superiority in their own eyes and in the eyes of 3rd parties in the 1880s, and even up until Japan defeated their fleet in 1894.
I think China, in terms of certain naval equipment, was ahead of Japan, simply because it had a bigger budget to work with. (Poor implementation of training and maintenance in fact erased this paper superiority)
However, I am thinking that China still must have only started acquiring modern ships and weapons only later than Japan, because in the 1870s, China was passive about Japanese actions in Korea and Taiwan, and the Ryukyus. China had a respectable record of dealing with non-European enemies, on land, in the 20 years after defeating the Taipings, crushing Muslim rebels and deterring the Russian occupation of Ili, but China seemed strangely passive about Japan's takeover of the Ryukyus.
In the 1870s Japan also seems to have been worthy of at least some respect by Europeans because when the Russians wanted to claim sole custody of Sakhalin, they were willing to trade the Kuril islands they held to Japan in order to get it. If they truly though Japan was a non-factor, the Russians would have just taken all Sakhalin and offered the Japanese nothing in return.
The thing about Japan before it's China and Russia wars is that it had not "proved itself" and logically would have been much weaker 10 or 20 years before, yet in terms of power projection, the Europeans were also weaker 10 or 20 years before. For instance, before they built up Qingdao and Port Arthur, the Germans and Russians were heavily dependent on the port facilities of -Yokohama, Japan to operate their fleets in the Pacific. So in that sense, Japan had a position of strength earlier on.