AHC: Mameluk like Mesoamericans

Berserker

okeey, maybe it is far fetched, but my general Idea is this:

a Spanish (or Andalusian or Portugese or anny Iberian peninsula based power) conquers OTL Aztecs, Mayans or anny other.

this "Iberian" power has to wage war with a european counter superpower for a long time, long enough for famine and battle to seriously weaken them. in turn, they would use Mameluk style warriors from the various tribes of america. true, manny would die, but those who survive will rise to power. population of these "Mameluk Natives" must increase enough to sustain a effective population.

the ultimate move: make them overtrow their masters and rule Iberia, or a part of it.

Fun? Difficult? ASB? or just a sick mind trick?
 

mikegold

I don't know if this qualifies, but if either Spain or Portugal retained most of their OTL empires, they would eventually be dominated by colonials and not Europeans, by simple demographics. This actually happened in Portugal during and after the Napoleonic wars, with the imperial center of gravity shifting to Brazil - and King Joao attempting to maintain the capital in Rio even after the mainland was liberated.
 

XanXar

Berserker said:
okeey, maybe it is far fetched, but my general Idea is this:

a Spanish (or Andalusian or Portugese or anny Iberian peninsula based power) conquers OTL Aztecs, Mayans or anny other.

this "Iberian" power has to wage war with a european counter superpower for a long time, long enough for famine and battle to seriously weaken them. in turn, they would use Mameluk style warriors from the various tribes of america. true, manny would die, but those who survive will rise to power. population of these "Mameluk Natives" must increase enough to sustain a effective population.

the ultimate move: make them overtrow their masters and rule Iberia, or a part of it.

Fun? Difficult? ASB? or just a sick mind trick?
Click to expand...

I could see it work in an al-Andalus survival TL. They could use Jannisary-style native soldiers in their colonial empire. But they couldn't take over Iberia like the Mameluks took over Egypt, its just too far away. However they could take over the colonial possesions though.
 

Berserker

mikegold said:
I don't know if this qualifies, but if either Spain or Portugal retained most of their OTL empires, they would eventually be dominated by colonials and not Europeans, by simple demographics. This actually happened in Portugal during and after the Napoleonic wars, with the imperial center of gravity shifting to Brazil - and King Joao attempting to maintain the capital in Rio even after the mainland was liberated.
Click to expand...

Sounds awesome to me, nut I am really looking for actual "Natives" to dominate Hispanic politics.

I could see it work in an al-Andalus survival TL. They could use Jannisary-style native soldiers in their colonial empire. But they couldn't take over Iberia like the Mameluks took over Egypt, its just too far away. However they could take over the colonial possesions though.
Click to expand...

did the Mameluks brought extra soldiers in then??:eek:

iff enough slave soldiers (and perhaps more to work in the land) where brought in then??
 

XanXar

Berserker said:
Sounds awesome to me, nut I am really looking for actual "Natives" to dominate Hispanic politics.



did the Mameluks brought extra soldiers in then??:eek:

iff enough slave soldiers (and perhaps more to work in the land) where brought in then??
Click to expand...

Well OTL al-Andalus had various problems with home-grown soldiers, so people such as Almanzor were forced to use Berber mercaneries. Here is a scenario for you.

If you have a minor PoD in that the Umayyad governer (forgot his name) who banned slave tributes from Berbers, didn't, you could see a mameluk-like system develop from there.
Fast forward several centuries and the Berber slave soldiers have become the standard in the Maghreb and al-Andalus, and the new world is discovered. The state in al-Andalus loses its territory in North Africa and are left without a steady source of Slave soldiers. So it begins to rely on native converts from the new world and Christian Iberians. The Christian slaves often lead to rebellion, so are discontinued.
So now the Andalusians are only left with native slave soldiers (Usually Mestizos) , who soon become the standard as the Berbers before them. They evntually gain prevelance in governing, and soon enough the entire colonial empire is dependant on them (Just like how the Jannisaries were). And lets say theres some trouble back in Iberia, and the native slave soldiers take complete control of the Andalusian new world.
There, done.
 

Roberto

I've always wondered what would happen if the "Discovery of the New World" happened earlier in European history, so the exchange was more even. Sort of how the Skraelings were easily a match for Norse sailors, because he technology package the Norse carried didn't tower over the Amerindians' by as much as the Spaniards' did.

So, how's this: Trans-Atlantic contact is initiated in the 13th century, and the chocolate and tobacco trade quickly takes off. Even with plagues destroying pre-Contact societies, no European state is organized enough to pull off a trans-oceanic conquest, so the interactions between Mesoamerican urban civilzation and Western European civilization is much more balanced.

Before conctact can turn violent, the Black Plague hits, and European society is flipped upside down. Basically, Europe and Mesoamerica are in the same boat, but contact has already been initiated. Tomatoes and potatoes are feeding more and more people in Europe, and the Toltecs and early Aztecs are learning to love beef and pork. Both civilizations recover with help from the *Columbian* Exchange, and by the 16th century Europe has its shit together enough for at least on megalomaniac king to send a fleet across the Big Ol' Blue. Religious pretenses are claimed, etc.

But ITTL Alt-Cortes' conquests look more like the Crusades than the total destruction of pre-Columbian culture. A small strip near the Coast is conquered, but it's surrounded on three sides, home mostly to locals, and in a harsh foreign environment. War is bloody and drawn-out, but as there is no single Mesoamerican religion, the differences are more reconciliable.

Economics kick in. The Europeans have much to gain in lesser populated areas like the Caribbean and the Eastern Seaboard. Labor is needed, and the Mesoamerican city-states have a long history of mass slavery. Boatloads of prisonders of war start getting shipped out of the European foothold ports to the fledgling colonies elsewhere in the New World. Many colonies have a vast majority of Mesoamerican settlers, including Marroon-type runaway settlements, and colonies where the white settlers bailed or all died, but their slaves remained. The Mesoamerican cultural sphere expands way past its birthplace, and the city-states themselves start sending out colonists.

At some point, mercenaries are needed in some religious war, TTL's version of the 30 Years War, and obsidian-blade wielding cannibals are hired specifically for the shock factor. During all the chaos, they bunk down in some small town and rule as an elite class.

So we end up with a *Mamluk state in the middle of Germany. Nice. :cool:
 
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