AHC: Make Sealion very unlikely

Garrison

Donor
There's also a qualitative difference between attacking even the most lumbering of battleships and river barges, most of which would have been strung together to be towed by tugs as they lacked engines. The practical reality is that the Wehrmacht of 1940 had no amphibious assault capability. Sure they could have built one in the 1930s, but at the price of weakening their capabilities for fighting the French and of course the grand scheme of conquest in the east.
 
There's also a qualitative difference between attacking even the most lumbering of battleships and river barges, most of which would have been strung together to be towed by tugs as they lacked engines. The practical reality is that the Wehrmacht of 1940 had no amphibious assault capability. Sure they could have built one in the 1930s, but at the price of weakening their capabilities for fighting the French and of course the grand scheme of conquest in the east.
Pretty sure Britain can mass-produce lightly armed patrol ships at least as fast as Germany can mass-produce landing craft. Even if this miniature naval race happens in a vacuum, it's still a complete non-starter.
 
I am confused. According to various posts here the FAA and RAF would have done noticeably damage to a Germany invasion flotilla, but if Germany managed to somehow decimate the RAF and achieve air suppiority over the Channel the Royal Navy would still be able to control the Channel.
Unless I am missing something we seam to be saying a Heads you win and tails I lose.
Historically basically anytime an Airforce had control of the air over ships the aircraft prett much romped all over said ships. This holds pretty much true even in battles where both sides had aircraft involved. One sides aircraft would be out of position or low on fuel or ammo or what not and the other side would have a romp. Only when the two sides were reasonable even did the ships get off relatively safe. And in the middle of the ocean I can do a LOT more maneuvering then I can in the English Channel. Even with a destroyer you are going to have to be a lot more careful manuvering then in the open sea.
So why if somehow the Germans can secure control of the air would not not be able to generally protect there flotilla and inflict a lot of damage to the Royal Navy?
Yes I understand that as it turns out they could not get said control but we are asking for ways to make the dread sea mammal live a bit longer.

There is an argument here that the Germans of 1940 are not remotely the anti-ship bombers that the Americans or the Japanese are. I'm a little less up on the American and Japanese side of things so I won't press the point, but be aware that this comparison has been made before.

So if we reallocated out resources a bit differently /better, Get better leadership for the Luftwaffe (Say a certain General ODs or crashes his car or something ) This could lead to less troops getting away from Dunkirk and could see them being a bit better against ships. Which could also help at Dunkirk.
We keep attacking the RAF, while getting luck with a few bombs and damage production of fighters in England
While England makes a few worse calls.
The end result could be that for a time the Germans can dominate the Air over the Chanel and get some men and supplies ashore
Ultimately I think they still lose. As while you don’t need the Full D-Day equipment and supplies and manpower to make a landing in England before England finishes rearming itself and before the US turns England into the largest military supply base in history. You still need a better plan the Germany had in order to sustain the invasion. But I think with the right breaks on their side and with things going wrong for England that a probably managed war with the resources used right you could pull off a successful landing that put up a good fight before being driven back into the sea.

The bigger problem, though, is that while we may tinker around the edges all we like, there is a basic problem of scale here. Britain has naval superiority. Those maps from grade school where the black or red evil Nazi splotch in Europe gets bigger and bigger then smaller and smaller doesn't show the part that actually matters in defending Britain, which is that by and large, the ocean is Allied terrain at the beginning of the war and Allied terrain at the end of it. Except on the U-boat front, it continually gets worse for Germany, not better. They lost almost half their destroyers at Narvik.

The fact of British naval superiority messes with all kinds of what seem at first to be sensible comparisons. The British can do something genuinely foolhardy like flood the Channel with pleasure craft to evacuate Dunkirk purely and simply because they know perfectly well the Germans have no naval force capable of stopping them. That German air power would exact a large and growing toll on the Royal Navy if it chose to enter into the Channel in force is undeniable, but ask yourself: would you rather be in an aircraft taking aim at a destroyer that is actively firing back at you while zigzagging at 35 knots, or would you rather be in a barge creeping ahead at four knots, effectively defenceless, with an enemy destroyer's guns aimed at you?

The relevant comparisons in my mind, such as Crete and Exercise Tiger, show that effectively unchallenged naval forces can extremely rapidly and effectively disperse amphibious convoys, especially improvised ones. I am sure the British government will accept the sacrifice of a great many destroyers if the invasion fleet goes to the bottom with them.

As an aside to this I have a question, does Dunkirk and the fact that a lot of smaller ships and boats managed to get away relatively safely show that it was harder to hit smaller craft then bigger craft such as Aircraft carriers and battle ships? It has always seamed to me that aircraft were more successful the bigger the target ship was, This logically could be the result of the bigger ships being bigger targets and less maneuverable or it could be the result of more aircraft concentrating on the bigger ships or a combination of both.

On its own and leaving AA weapons out of the picture, a large target would obviously be easier to hit than a smaller target. Frankly if the Royal Navy's units are able to actually get in amongst a convoy it seems to me that, at least for that part of the battle, NEITHER air force will be of any use for fear of hitting its own ships. Which incidentally is another great way to limit your exposure to the Luftwaffe, if you're the RN. Of course, once you sink your cover, you're back to square one.
 
I am confused. According to various posts here the FAA and RAF would have done noticeably damage to a Germany invasion flotilla, but if Germany managed to somehow decimate the RAF and achieve air suppiority over the Channel the Royal Navy would still be able to control the Channel.
Unless I am missing something we seam to be saying a Heads you win and tails I lose.
Historically basically anytime an Airforce had control of the air over ships the aircraft prett much romped all over said ships.

The question is not whether the aircraft had a field day, it's whether the naval force achieved its mission.

In the Med, off Crete in 1941, despite perfect weather and total air supremacy, the Luftwaffe was unable to prevent the RN achieving its mission of defeating the invasion convoys. They exacted a heavy toll, sure, but they were unable to stop the ships.
 
Historically basically anytime an Airforce had control of the air over ships the aircraft prett much romped all over said ships.

Hum...define romp? It is just that historically we have a rather telling example of the Royal Navy operating under conditions of total Luftwaffe air supremacy at the Battle of Crete and the German/Italian convoys did not fair well.


As an aside to this I have a question, does Dunkirk and the fact that a lot of smaller ships and boats managed to get away relatively safely show that it was harder to hit smaller craft then bigger craft such as Aircraft carriers and battle ships? It has always seamed to me that aircraft were more successful the bigger the target ship was, This logically could be the result of the bigger ships being bigger targets and less maneuverable or it could be the result of more aircraft concentrating on the bigger ships or a combination of both.

At Dunkirk the little ships have seem to have experienced carnage, although I cannot find specific figures for the craft taken from private ownership (the strict definition of "the Little Ships") of some 300 small craft recorded as being at Dunkirk in British service over half were lost. Of course some of this may have been due to artillery fire. Then again one of the roles of the Luftwaffe under Sealion was to suppress the British coastal defences, a quick peek at Operation Overlord might offer clues as to how well that would go so the German tugs and barges could expect to be under artillery fire at a lot of spots too, significantly the more important ones.

As for bigger ships being more vulnerable the British in fact lost only 2 battleships to air attack and both of those were in conditions of effective Japanese air supremacy. Only one British carrier was sunk by air attack, Hermes again by the Japanese. Numerous cruisers and destroyers were lost to air power but conversely they are the kind of vessels that are deliberately exposed because they are more expendable, just look at the wartime building figures for comparison as to the relative ease of replacement.

Also look at how long it took air forces to attrite naval forces operating in their area and compare that with the length of time it takes a warship to disperse or kill a convoy. Because the only defence most of the vessels had against anything as big as a destroyer was to run...well trundle slowly...in one direction and hope the warship chases someone going the other way. For the RN dispersal works just fine as mission accomplished as the invasion only works if everyone shows up at the right place.
 
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Ramontxo

Donor
And don't forget that both the Americans and the Japanese had torpedo bombers (the later with excellent torpedoes) while at this stage the Germans didn't
 
Also didn't the Germans lack an AP bomb worth a damn at this point? IIRC the Germans did have a torpedo bomber but it was on a sloooooow sea plane that was the only thing equipped to carry it and the torpedoes dropped were not very good weapons that were then tied to a vulnerable and slow platform.
 

Ian_W

Banned
Also didn't the Germans lack an AP bomb worth a damn at this point? IIRC the Germans did have a torpedo bomber but it was on a sloooooow sea plane that was the only thing equipped to carry it and the torpedoes dropped were not very good weapons that were then tied to a vulnerable and slow platform.

To be fair, the Swordfish can fairly be described as "a vulnerable and slow platform" as well.

Also, it's totally the best response to any German enthusiasm for building landing craft.
 
Pretty sure Britain can mass-produce lightly armed patrol ships at least as fast as Germany can mass-produce landing craft. Even if this miniature naval race happens in a vacuum, it's still a complete non-starter.

OTL the RN was operating something in the region of 800+ small armed craft (armed motor boats with a machine gun to armed trawlers with old deck guns + MGs etc) - and on any given night at least 300 of these were swarming around the length of the channel looking for signs of an enemy invasion fleet forming up etc

This force alone could probably defeated an invasion force

Then we have Mine sweepers, MTBs/MGBs, Corvettes, DDs CLs and a Battleship - and that's just in the Channel!
 

Garrison

Donor
OTL the RN was operating something in the region of 800+ small armed craft (armed motor boats with a machine gun to armed trawlers with old deck guns + MGs etc) - and on any given night at least 300 of these were swarming around the length of the channel looking for signs of an enemy invasion fleet forming up etc

This force alone could probably defeated an invasion force

Then we have Mine sweepers, MTBs/MGBs, Corvettes, DDs CLs and a Battleship - and that's just in the Channel!

Yeah one problem with keeping the RN away from the German invasion force is that they already have significant forces inside the perimeter of the projected landing zone.
 
The relevant comparisons in my mind, such as Crete and Exercise Tiger, show that effectively unchallenged naval forces can extremely rapidly and effectively disperse amphibious convoys, especially improvised ones. I am sure the British government will accept the sacrifice of a great many destroyers if the invasion fleet goes to the bottom with them.

The entire RN would go down fighting rather than see anything get ashore in England.

On its own and leaving AA weapons out of the picture, a large target would obviously be easier to hit than a smaller target. Frankly if the Royal Navy's units are able to actually get in amongst a convoy it seems to me that, at least for that part of the battle, NEITHER air force will be of any use for fear of hitting its own ships. Which incidentally is another great way to limit your exposure to the Luftwaffe, if you're the RN. Of course, once you sink your cover, you're back to square one.

And once the DD's and other light ships get in there that convoy is in trouble. The DD's wakes alone will be snapping tow lines and scattering the convoy, I can see a few ships getting ashore but not many and not in numbers to allow them to do anything.
 
The entire RN would go down fighting rather than see anything get ashore in England.
Exactly. 3 years to build a ship, 300 to build a tradition.
And once the DD's and other light ships get in there that convoy is in trouble. The DD's wakes alone will be snapping tow lines and scattering the convoy, I can see a few ships getting ashore but not many and not in numbers to allow them to do anything.
A friend of mine once said that he'd met somebody who was in the Destroyer Squadron based at Chatham. Said chap reckoned one of the captains there had come up with the idea of charging straight through the invasion fleet at full ahead both, bound for Portsmouth. At the same yime, the Pompey force would do the same in reverse. They reckoned they could probably cripple the invasion force without opening fire.
 
Exactly. 3 years to build a ship, 300 to build a tradition.

A friend of mine once said that he'd met somebody who was in the Destroyer Squadron based at Chatham. Said chap reckoned one of the captains there had come up with the idea of charging straight through the invasion fleet at full ahead both, bound for Portsmouth. At the same yime, the Pompey force would do the same in reverse. They reckoned they could probably cripple the invasion force without opening fire.
In a way, it's the overconfidence of the Royal Navy that would make me worry.

That said, the disparity in forces is so great that the only pertinent question for Sea Lion is never whether the German can win, but how many British ships they can take with them.
 
The question is not whether the aircraft had a field day, it's whether the naval force achieved its mission.

In the Med, off Crete in 1941, despite perfect weather and total air supremacy, the Luftwaffe was unable to prevent the RN achieving its mission of defeating the invasion convoys. They exacted a heavy toll, sure, but they were unable to stop the ships.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Andrew_Cunningham,_1st_Viscount_Cunningham_of_Hyndhope

Without air cover, Cunningham's ships suffered serious losses. Cunningham was determined, though, that the "navy must not let the army down", and when army generals feared he would lose too many ships, Cunningham famously said,

"It takes the Navy three years to build a ship. It will take three hundred years to build a new tradition. The evacuation will continue."
 
It's almost as if when the Royal Navy decides to carry out an operation, German airpower could not stop them...

Now, if the Italian Fleet wasn't immobilised by the lack of fuel and poor coordination with the Germans, RN loss could have escalated in a combined air-sea operation against both Germans and Italians, giving rise to the possibility of a failed evacuation. However, land based German airpower alone is insufficient due to doctrinal and equipment issues.

If it is the land-based Japanese airpower who wa trained to interdict naval surface ships, that's another matter.
 
In a way, it's the overconfidence of the Royal Navy that would make me worry.

That said, the disparity in forces is so great that the only pertinent question for Sea Lion is never whether the German can win, but how many British ships they can take with them.
I don't think they'd be over confident. This is the invasion of the United Kingdom. However unlikely it is to succeed, it's deadly serious. They will do their utmost to destroy it.

The aftermath of a disastrous Sea Lion might be interesting for the UK armed forces. In OTL, Fighter Command were The Few: the gallant knights of the sky who drove back Gerry, and made invasion impossible. In TTL, they'd be part of the many. Fighter Command, Bomber Command, Coastal Command, the RN, the Army and the LDV/Home Guard will all have played a role.

That will have an impact in both the war to come, and the aftermath.
 
Now, if the Italian Fleet wasn't immobilised by the lack of fuel and poor coordination with the Germans, RN loss could have escalated in a combined air-sea operation against both Germans and Italians, giving rise to the possibility of a failed evacuation. However, land based German airpower alone is insufficient due to doctrinal and equipment issues.

If it is the land-based Japanese airpower who wa trained to interdict naval surface ships, that's another matter.
If Japanese land-based bombers were in range of Britain... but they aren't.

If the Italians had better battleships... but they didn't.

If the Axis could get better fuel sources... but they couldn't.

I mean, it's not that you're wrong, it's just that my point is, under the circumstances that prevailed ca. 1940, what limited historical examples we have for comparison's sake confirm the near-consensus opinion about what will certainly happen if the Germans move ahead with Sea Lion.

If what could have stopped the RN at Crete was a sortie by Italian battleships, well then, Sea Lion is doomed for sure. The Germans don't have the battleships -- and the Royal Navy's presence in home waters is far larger than in the Mediterranean. The ships that greeted the would-be German landing parties were not a shadow of the welcome waiting in the Channel.

Edited: for really weird choice of wording, now fixed.
 
and the French have battleships, an air force, coastal and maritime shipping and an army. BTW you can pass a large barge/small coastal craft from Italy to the Channel via French inland waterways.
 
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