AHC: Make Bridgerton realistic. Africans intermix with European nobility.

part of the harem and thus not go outside that often.
Wasn't most of the harem made of Slavs, Turks, and European women? I certainly didn't remember reading about a black emir or caliph of Iberia. You had the Berber caliphates, but none of the art or records use black as a description. The first mass use of blacks in the army was with the Morrocan emir and his black legion.
But also not all Arabs are born white skinned.
Of course
No? If you're talking about eunuchs', they were not predominantly African.
The Africans were castrated before going into the dar al Islam to my knowledge. But a lot of eunuchs were Slavs and other ethnicities.
Bilal wasn't a black Arab, he was just African.
Bilal that was his name.
Most Africans,
Were from its inception cheaper than the rest (usually). Being usually seen as of poor quality when compared to other groups.
This is a really awkward conversation to have because it requires a fundemtnwl breakdown of what Black meant across different time periods and societies and it’s not easy to make sweeping statements one way or another because the level of racialism that dark-skinned people and “Black” people experienced varied a lot as various people interacted and developed and took ideas from each other.
Great statement.
 
Wasn't most of the harem made of Slavs, Turks, and European women?
The Umayyads? No.

I certainly didn't remember reading about a black emir or caliph of Iberia
I'm talking about the Umayyad Dynasty prior to being relegated to Spain, not after.

The Africans were castrated before going into the dar al Islam to my knowledge. But a lot of eunuchs were Slavs and other ethnicities.
Most eunuchs were not Africans. At least for the Abbasid era, African slaves were castrated due to racist, irrational fears about African fertility but not all of them were.
 
What time are we talking about exactly? Slave markets in 13th-15th century Europe (in regions like Sicily) tended to have a similar price difference between Black Slaves and “Moorish” Slaves. This mostly was due to Racialism relating to a belief that black slaves would be poorer galley-slaves and a lack of access to familial networks/redemption networks for Black Slaves to access to get their freedom that Moorish Slaves did.
Northern Europe was in my mind when I said that. The Mediterranean obviously had different ideas.
 
The Umayyads? No.
I am talking about Umayyad Iberia, but before that, the harem was arabs then?
Most eunuchs were not Africans.
Yes, I agreed with you in the last post. Most everything was not African.
At least for the Abbasid era, African slaves were castrated due to racist, irrational fears about African fertility but not all of them were.
I mean "not all of them were" is this not the anwser for most think? Like we're always going to have a minority that the general rule doesn't catch. Tunisian Arab historian Ibn Khaldun (1332-1406) wrote that “the only peoples to accept slavery are the Negroes, because of their lower degree of humanity, their place being closer to the animal stage.”
 
I am talking about Umayyad Iberia, but before that, the harem was arabs then?
Yes.

I mean "not all of them were" is this not the anwser for most think?
It's a necessary clarification since you appear to generalize that as a main tendency throughout the Islamic world and in all periods when it differed significantly. For one, that ideology only emerged in the Islamic world during the Abbasid period. While racism existed prior to that, it wasn't turned into a racialist ideology until then.

I mean "not all of them were" is this not the anwser for most think? Like we're always going to have a minority that the general rule doesn't catch. Tunisian Arab historian Ibn Khaldun (1332-1406) wrote that “the only peoples to accept slavery are the Negroes, because of their lower degree of humanity, their place being closer to the animal stage.”

Well that certainly sounds like Ibn Khaldun.
 
I'm also drawn to Portugal and Kongo for this, though by different means. Portugal was relatively poor before going beyond Cape Bojador by increments, then leaps and bounds. They also paused further exploration before later resuming. I picture an expedition reaching Kongo or its vassals ending in irreparable shipwreck, before one of those pauses in exploration. Perhaps the pause would be longer. But if the Portuguese marooned there still succeeded in converting Kongo/Ndongo/other nobility to Christianity, and had time to intermix with the locals before the next Portuguese ship showed up, they might well sow a seed for their mixed children - and the Africans they intermixed with - to be a cornerstone of the Portuguese commercial advantage in early African trade. An amplified version of what already happened with the Lançados and Senhora traders OTL, made potentially more impactful by the extra initial isolation.

More interesting to me is the possibility of reversing the scenario to make the society in which this occurs be the African one, not a European one. For that, a kinder take on Cape colonists intermixing with the KhoeKhoe (sp?) might do, or having white immigration to the Dahomey Gap around Accra (where the rate of Euro-death from Malaria and Tsetse-borne illnesses might be just sufficiently less could create a lower-population example.
I'm thinking Ethiopia has more chances, because Kongo is fairly useless to any European power as far as I know.

You don't need Kongo to go to the Indies, and it doesn't have natural resources other places do not have. And it's not near other powers that'd need to be balanced for Europeans.

Were there particular stuff in Kongo that's of strategic value for pre modern European powers? Besides slaves?
 
I'm thinking Ethiopia has more chances, because Kongo is fairly useless to any European power as far as I know.

You don't need Kongo to go to the Indies, and it doesn't have natural resources other places do not have. And it's not near other powers that'd need to be balanced for Europeans.

Were there particular stuff in Kongo that's of strategic value for pre modern European powers? Besides slaves?
At the very least, the Kongo is a useful resupply point off point to the Indies. Though there are many better options both north and south
 
At the very least, the Kongo is a useful resupply point off point to the Indies. Though there are many better options both north and south
West Indies it's straight across the Atlantic, and East Indies you're very much avoiding Kongo as you're doing the Volte through Brazil and landing south

On the way back I'm not sure though
 
I did have a brief theory somewhere, revolving around the nonexistence of the dangerous reefs off Arguin allowing for greater maritime trade - and thus cultural and religious interaction - between the European and West African kingdoms.
 
I think the question about Arab slavery is a little more complex, while white (Caucasian) slaves often ended up as soldiers, administrators and concubines/wives and black slaves mostly as field slaves and house servants, at the same time Ethiopians were sought for their beauty [1]. The Muslims did make a very clear distinction between Africans from the African horn and other Africans. Eunuchs was also overrepresented among African slaves, a major reason for this was that some school of Islam banned Muslim from castrating people, so the procedure was often done by Ethiopian middlemen.

As for the question about mixed European and African descendent royalty and nobility. A major problem is that geography split these population from each other making the degree of mixing people suggest unlikely. But there is a solution, an earlier colonization of the Americas would result in stronger American aristocracy, and give more time for free black to rise up in the ranks. We could easily imagine that a Vinlandic population which have spread to the Caribbean and began to import African slaves through the Portuguese (who would likely establish a trade route across the Atlantic around 1400, if they knew there land and people there), would see the rise of biracial or triracial aristocrats, and they could over time even become the dominant group of the Caribbean (they would likely look like Dominicans), these people growing rich from their estates we could easily see intermarry with the mainland white Vinlanders, as their riches would make their mainland cousins ignore racists or classist concern over their dark skin or illegitimate origin, while the marrying the mainlanders would be important as the islands likely dependent on food imports.

[1] At least two Omani Sultans were son of Ethiopian concubines (the Omani Sultans great and great great grandfathers)
 
I'm thinking Ethiopia has more chances, because Kongo is fairly useless to any European power as far as I know.
I was not thinking of the utility to Portugal, only of the isolation necessary to get a generation of racial mixing and relationship-building while out of contact with Portugal. The loss of contact in Ethiopia would have been less likely. (Also: how do they get there, exactly?)

You don't need Kongo to go to the Indies, and it doesn't have natural resources other places do not have. And it's not near other powers that'd need to be balanced for Europeans.
Agreed that you don't need it to reach the Indian Ocean. It took Portugal the better part of a century to figure out that zipping down the Brazil coast, then crossing vaguely by Tristan da Cunha, was the better route to the Indies.

Were there particular stuff in Kongo that's of strategic value for pre modern European powers? Besides slaves?
It did have better access to Ivory than other spots in Africa, not that that's a tiebreaker. Mostly, it had peoples that Portugal struck up useful relations with, quickly.
 
Agreed that you don't need it to reach the Indian Ocean. It took Portugal the better part of a century to figure out that zipping down the Brazil coast, then crossing vaguely by Tristan da Cunha, was the better route to the Indies.
It's even worse than that, they get to the Cape in 1489 if memory serves, and Vasco arrives through Brazilian waters 9 years later to India. Brazil is conveniently discovered right after
 
It's even worse than that, they get to the Cape in 1489 if memory serves, and Vasco arrives through Brazilian waters 9 years later to India. Brazil is conveniently discovered right after
Yes, but: now arrange this all to serve the question: make a Bridgerton-style society, somewhere. I think off-the-beater-path is a better incubator for this, that's all.
 
As others say, it's very difficult to conceive of such a scenario with a POD later than the 15th century. You basically need time for a Christian African state to cohere (whether that be Ethiopia, Kongo, or some 3rd/novel candidate), go-a-conquering and convert large numbers of people to Christianity, establish a non-one sided contact with a European power, and then manage to get hooked into the Euro-Atlantic Columbian developmental superstream to avoid getting left in the dust in development and be wrapped up as barbarous others by European society and it's emerging conception of race. This is a very difficult scenario to get.

Ethiopia was too isolated to establish meaningful relationship with European powers in timely fashion, and only about half of it's latter-day territory was Christianized in the relevant period. Barring the conquest of the Swahili coast (or Egypt, but that takes us from ridiculous to nearly ASB), this seems unlikely.

Kongo is a better prospect, but Kongo was really quite a primitive state, most of it's "empire" being a series of oscillating tributary relations to more-or-less independent chiefdoms, and the grasp of Catholicism in its core territory was not especially strong. And it's main economic function in its era of early contact - the slave trade - hampers the prospect for development.
 
Could a successful conquest of Egypt during the Crusades (either by the Kingdom of Jerusalem in the 1160s or by Crusaders while on their way to Jerusalem during one of the next Crusades) pave the way for further exploration into Southern regions of Africa and lead to the foundation of new Christian states in the Middle Ages, with the descendants of European-born rulers eventually marrying into native families?
 
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