AHC: Keep the Mormons Insular, (Relatively) Libertine, and Polygamous

[frustrated progressive]

As I understand it, for most of the 19th Century, the Mormons were relatively isolated, insular, sexually (and otherwise) libertine, and not connected with wider America or concerned with economic success- in other words, like the FLDS. How could the Mormons have remained in this state for longer?
No offense intended to our Mormon members.

 

[Callmesalticidae]

I'm afraid I don't know what you're talking about regarding being sexual libertines (reference, please?) but if either Joseph Smith or his brother Hyrum had not been killed then the church might have stuck around longer--potentially long enough to prevent any schisms on the scale of OTL.

Probably your best bet is to keep Joseph alive. Whatever Mormons were like, sexual libertines or not, keeping around the guy who started that is more likely to keep it going than saving his brother (who I am less-versed on).

Maybe Joseph goes out to Carthage Jail as in OTL, but narrowly survives, and the Mormons are pushed out of Nauvoo with Joseph in charge. Or maybe the pressure to leave gets strong enough that they depart before Carthage comes up in the first place. Joseph was already anticipating another move, so there wouldn't be too much of an issue in pulling up stakes ahead of schedule.

 

[frustrated progressive]

I'm afraid I don't know what you're talking about regarding being sexual libertines (reference, please?) but if either Joseph Smith or his brother Hyrum had not been killed then the church might have stuck around longer--potentially long enough to prevent any schisms on the scale of OTL.

Probably your best bet is to keep Joseph alive. Whatever Mormons were like, sexual libertines or not, keeping around the guy who started that is more likely to keep it going than saving his brother (who I am less-versed on).

Maybe Joseph goes out to Carthage Jail as in OTL, but narrowly survives, and the Mormons are pushed out of Nauvoo with Joseph in charge. Or maybe the pressure to leave gets strong enough that they depart before Carthage comes up in the first place. Joseph was already anticipating another move, so there wouldn't be too much of an issue in pulling up stakes ahead of schedule.

I just meant polygamy for the sexual part. As for the general, the fact that the Words of Wisdom were just advice until the early 20th Century.

 

[Mackus]

I just meant polygamy for the sexual part. As for the general, the fact that the Words of Wisdom were just advice until the early 20th Century.

How Mormons being polygamous made them sexual libertines? There is nothing libertine about traditional (polygynous) polygamy.

 

[frustrated progressive]

How Mormons being polygamous made them sexual libertines? There is nothing libertine about traditional (polygynous) polygamy.

For the men, a certain argument could be made.

 

[scholar]

For the men, a certain argument could be made.

Then that argument applies to the entirety of Africa, the Middle East, large portions of Europe at different times, large portions of the Americas at different times, and almost the entirety of Asia depending on how wants to view the distinction between wively statuses throughout most of history.

...and it makes the Romans and Greeks not sexually libertine.

 

[frustrated progressive]

Then that argument applies to the entirety of Africa, the Middle East, large portions of Europe at different times, large portions of the Americas at different times, and almost the entirety of Asia depending on how wants to view the distinction between wively statuses throughout most of history.

...and it makes the Romans and Greeks not sexually libertine.

You're saying male Greeks and Romans weren't libertines?

 

[Penny for The Guy]

Two Sense Worth

This is an area in which I have a certain knowledge, as I find the history fascinating. (And, no, I am not LDS, nor have I ever any intention of going that way.)

The many lurid "exposé"s of LDS sexual shenanigans includes Conan Doyle's first work, A Study In Scarlet, from which many get their ideas of the horny Mormon Elders. About all of it has as much relevance to reality as several recent pornographic movies and tv serials. It makes for salacious titillation, but the facts are otherwise. Regular, habitual, and religio-socially sanctioned sexual liaisons can not be considered "libertine" by definition. In West Africa, polyandry (one woman married to several men) is an old and normal custom. It becomes libertine in nature only when the sexual contact is made outside the marriage.

Since the multiple-partner marriages of the old LDS, pre Wilford Woodruff's announcement, were sanctioned -- and in several cases, ordered -- by the church and the society, they cannot by any stretch of the imagination, be considered "libertine" in nature.

The OP is evidently bemused by this popular picture. It will not do to blame the regular LDS for the sins of the FLDS. (The regular LDS have other problems, not pertinent to this thread, which I shall not address.)

So far as the particular social culture of the Mormons, it was inevitably in conflict with the surrounding milieu, from economic problems in Ohio, to slave-owning Missourians, to social clamor in Illinois. While it is true the proximate cause of Joseph Smith's death was the suppression of the newspaper which dared to expose polygamy, the larger picture lets us see the Mormons were too successfully competitive for comfort for their Illinois neighbors.

Leaving aside questions rising from the survival of Hiram or Joseph or both, the group had to go somewhere, and that far, far away from neighbors. They thought they had found it in Utah, only to have the United States catch up with them before they were quite settled in. (They might actually have done better in the still sparsely settled Western Provinces of Canada.) But so long as they remained in North America, conflict was going to happen.

Nor is it a matter of religion or social practices. I believe ANY bunch which were as cohesive and mutually-assisting as the Mormons would be seen as an economic threat. Perhaps under conditions of ghettoization, the particular social practices could be preserved for some longer time, but more likely is that Mormons would suffer the same reaction as European Jewry before 1945.

 

[frustrated progressive]

Nor is it a matter of religion or social practices. I believe ANY bunch which were as cohesive and mutually-assisting as the Mormons would be seen as an economic threat. Perhaps under conditions of ghettoization, the particular social practices could be preserved for some longer time, but more likely is that Mormons would suffer the same reaction as European Jewry before 1945.

How about the Old Order AmishÇ They fulfill both of these criteria, after all.

 

[jahenders]

As some have noted, the early Mormons weren't sexually libertine, they just had a broader definition of marriage than most (polygamy).

They were somewhat insular, but weren't totally disconnected from wider America. They were certainly interested in economic success, but more as a group than individually. At times, some practiced something almost akin to communism (from each, to each ...)

In terms of how they could have stayed polygamous, insular, etc longer ...

The key would probably be a change in the expansion of the US. IOTL, the leaders of the Utah Territory (closely aligned with the LDS Church) wanted to become a state, but the US clearly wouldn't allow it while the church still practiced polygamy. Ultimately, church leaders (or God) decided that giving it up was for the greater good. Then, they became a state. Along the way, lots more non-Mormons moved there and they became less insular.

So, I see 3 ways those changes might have been delayed:
1) If the early US had more problems such that it needed the Mormons more than they did, they might have gotten some concessions. As it was, the US paid the Mormons to raise a battalion to march to CA to fight Mexico (1847). If, perhaps, the US had multiple such needs that the Mormons were key to, the power dynamic might have been different.

2) With a lot more chaos in the early US (poor results in the Mexican-American War, etc), the Mormons might even have stood up as a separate republic (ala CA or TX)

3) When the issue of polygamy went to the supreme court (1878), they could have decided that banning it was unconstitutional. That seems unlikely with the legal mindset/precedent of the day, but would not be unlikely given the supreme court's recent precedents.

As I understand it, for most of the 19th Century, the Mormons were relatively isolated, insular, sexually (and otherwise) libertine, and not connected with wider America or concerned with economic success- in other words, like the FLDS. How could the Mormons have remained in this state for longer?
No offense intended to our Mormon members.

 

[Penny for The Guy]

Personal Information

No argument on 'libertinism' (certainly not what one finds in a contemporary source such as Ch. 19 of T.B.H. Stenhouse's A Lady's Life Among the Mormons), Penny, but what's your evidence for West African polyandry? The examples one always hears cited are Tibetans and some Indian peoples (often quite vaguely defined).

From my parish priest, Father Clement (RCC), who was born, raised, and served 15 years in Ghana before coming to the US. He said that, speaking pastorally, it was hard to convince those involved it was not a great idea, as there were so many economic advantages from it.

 

[jahenders]

FWIW, I saw a news story a while back about some tiny speck of a West African kingdom where, when the king died, the new king was selected by the old king's multiple wives.

The new king would then inherit the old king's wives (including, sometimes, his mother) as his wives. He could then add additional wives (he was apparently unmarried when picked per tradition).

From my parish priest, Father Clement (RCC), who was born, raised, and served 15 years in Ghana before coming to the US. He said that, speaking pastorally, it was hard to convince those involved it was not a great idea, as there were so many economic advantages from it.