AHC: Get more people in the US to take the train.

Subways in America before the car DID turn a profit. They still do in Japan and places that run them well. (Tokyo metro meets 113 percent of operating costs with fares). In NA toronto subway meets 70 percent of operating costs. I have no doubt that if it were optimally run, NYC subway could do this too.

Suburbs in the beginning weren't speaking messes, they were just extensions of city growth. But the reason I say they weren't different from cities as they are now is due to one crucial thing.

If you're in new York and want to go somewhere, what do you do? You walk to the nearest subway station.

If you're in an early American streetcar suburb or in outer Tokyo, what do you do? You walk to the train station.

Thus they developed in the exact same way (people don't want to live more than 2 km from the station b/c it's a pain to walk that far twice a day), so development was dense and clustered around stations. (This excludes the rich, of course)

The same train that you would use to get to work also could get you to the regional station too. Now I bet most Americans couldn't find their city's passenger station without a GPS. (And certainly wouldn't be able to walk to it.)

The car is what created sprawltopia.

If one can afford to travel by car, why would I want to be squeezed into the subway train like a sardine? This is a pretty common scene in the Various Tokyo subways.

Tokyo's density is just not replicable in other cities. Also, it would hard to convince the voters to subsidy even 30% of the costs if one feel they are not beneficiary.

While the high density development commonly found in Asian metropolis is often the result of insufficient land and zoning laws, that doesn't mean people don't want to live in larger homes though. US style mansion, probably not. But the current development pattern is despised by many.

One need to look from the perspective of a typical American middle-class family that has 2 children.

Also, automobile serves an importance niche even in cities that have good public transport. People's live don't just revolve between work and home. Public transport needs to be able to meet the need of people going to other location for fun and nightlife. However, most public transport stop at 2200 due to uneven passenger flow. Taxi and automobile serve this niche well.
 

marathag

Banned
In the 20th century electric trams were common in the US. If the US is special in this regard its because rails were prolifigate, not that the US is unsuitable.

SoDak had trams in Aberdeen, Hot Springs and Sioux Falls .
Nebraska had trams in Lincoln and Omaha.
Iowa had 27 tram systems.
Minnesota had 12 tram systems.
Wisconsin had 26 tram systems.
Michigan had 28 tram systems.
But local regulation hamstrung those. They couldn't charge what was needed for upkeep, and municipalities didn't subsidize themenough to cover operating costs , so service suffered

Buses were not regulated as heavily, and had lower upkeep costs. Buses were taking over, even before WWII
 
One thing I love about alternate history is that it can be a mental exercise which broadens your horizon. You realise which things depend on which other things, so what you took for granted and considered as a natural background feature is actually dependent on political decisions, on evolving cultural concepts, on technological innovations, on economic shenanigans etc. all of which could have gone in many different ways.

Thus, when in threads like this (and there have been many on the topic of railroad vs. auto transportation lately) some people state that the US is simply too vast and thinly populated, cars are simply too convenient, subsidies are something that concerns only trams and trains etc., I feel that this potential of alternate history is not tapped. It's a bit like the geographical determinism I've encountered in the Pre 1900 section when people claim that an industrial revolution is bound to begin in Britain in 9 out of 10 cases because of treasures of the soil, maritime commerce and the like. This is not to say that geography or other un-historical factors are completely unimportant. They are important, and US mobility is therefore always bound to look differently than Singapore mobility, just like Swiss mobility is looking differently from Danish mobility. But are we really freeing our minds enough here?

I believe many people are right when they say that a PoD has to be rather earlier than later. As always in AH, we must not underestimate how much the world is changed by a PoD in, say, the early 20th century. A different WW1 almost certainly butterflies the New Deal and Hitler's Autobahnen, and it absolutely certainly butterflies Eisenhower's interstates.

There clearly is a connection between (sub)urban geography, communal political planning, culture, and modes of traffic. Suburbia has been viewed in many different ways by different people across time, just like inner cities have; IOTL it has ingrained itself so deeply into culture that it may be difficult for us to disentangle ourselves, but I doubt that even if we assume capitalism as the dominant economic system of the 20th century and technological developments not being majorly hindered, OTL's mix of suburbian sprawl, universal automobility, road privileges, car culture, tram and train deemphasis etc. are something towards which US development naturally gravitates in any TL. (Actually one of the reasons these threads might pop up so often now could be that, for a few decades, inner cities have become hip now and expensive and places where wealthy and well-educated people live (, too), so this cultural change is probably mirrored here. Just like in the opposite earlier case I've argued for, here, too, we're not talking about an inevitable development, either...)

To return to some degree of concreteness, I'll just play with the WW1 PoD proposed in this thread: no US involvement.
It could - but does not need to, of course - produce the following consequences: Russian Provisional Government sees the futility of staying in the war and concludes separate peace, no October Revolution, no Soviet Union, no elimination of Ukrainian grain from world market, less of an agricultural spike elsewhere in the 1920s; WW1 ends in stalemate, no British hegemony in Arabia, less cheap oil in the West; central Europe more politically and economically stable, no Weimar instability, no Hitler, no Autobahnen, no WW2, no Eisenhower; probably no progress enthusiasm of the "Roaring Twenties", socio-cultural patterns including self-concepts of the middle classes resembling to a greater degree those developing pre-WW1; no cultural etc. exodus from Berlin, Vienna etc., US looks e.g. to EUrope for cultural inspiration at least as much as the other way round (virtualy everything upon which, say, "Rebels Without a Cause" was based, is removed by now)... You can take it from here. Or you could take tons of other routes, where, just like always in alternate history, small changes will produce great divergences. Of course, the above scenario could also produce different consequences, in which US infrastructure resembles OTL more closely. But it doesn't have to. It's not ingrained in a "US mentality", nor is it determined by the natural geography of North America or anything else beyond human control.
 
Also, of course the internal combustion engine is going to exert itself powerfully. If you want to focus on that, think of how different wheels, different freight-to-passenger emphasis etc. could change the whole thing. Even from the Ford T model, we can still go in so many ways that are remote from OTL (and there have been trucks and tanks based on its design even IOTL). There is absolutely nothing that prevents an ATL US American viewing the internal combustion engine as "self-evidently" destined for use in tractors, combines and the like for the agricultural sector with which he associates them first and foremost, then also jeep-like vehicles for the many dirt roads which in his TL characterise rural America, and motorcycles and small trucks which fit the delivery gaps in the densely populated cities of his TL which look a lot more like our NYC than our LA.
 
One thing I love about alternate history is that it can be a mental exercise which broadens your horizon. You realise which things depend on which other things, so what you took for granted and considered as a natural background feature is actually dependent on political decisions, on evolving cultural concepts, on technological innovations, on economic shenanigans etc. all of which could have gone in many different ways.

Thus, when in threads like this (and there have been many on the topic of railroad vs. auto transportation lately) some people state that the US is simply too vast and thinly populated, cars are simply too convenient, subsidies are something that concerns only trams and trains etc., I feel that this potential of alternate history is not tapped. It's a bit like the geographical determinism I've encountered in the Pre 1900 section when people claim that an industrial revolution is bound to begin in Britain in 9 out of 10 cases because of treasures of the soil, maritime commerce and the like. This is not to say that geography or other un-historical factors are completely unimportant. They are important, and US mobility is therefore always bound to look differently than Singapore mobility, just like Swiss mobility is looking differently from Danish mobility. But are we really freeing our minds enough here?

I believe many people are right when they say that a PoD has to be rather earlier than later. As always in AH, we must not underestimate how much the world is changed by a PoD in, say, the early 20th century. A different WW1 almost certainly butterflies the New Deal and Hitler's Autobahnen, and it absolutely certainly butterflies Eisenhower's interstates.

There clearly is a connection between (sub)urban geography, communal political planning, culture, and modes of traffic. Suburbia has been viewed in many different ways by different people across time, just like inner cities have; IOTL it has ingrained itself so deeply into culture that it may be difficult for us to disentangle ourselves, but I doubt that even if we assume capitalism as the dominant economic system of the 20th century and technological developments not being majorly hindered, OTL's mix of suburbian sprawl, universal automobility, road privileges, car culture, tram and train deemphasis etc. are something towards which US development naturally gravitates in any TL. (Actually one of the reasons these threads might pop up so often now could be that, for a few decades, inner cities have become hip now and expensive and places where wealthy and well-educated people live (, too), so this cultural change is probably mirrored here. Just like in the opposite earlier case I've argued for, here, too, we're not talking about an inevitable development, either...)

To return to some degree of concreteness, I'll just play with the WW1 PoD proposed in this thread: no US involvement.
It could - but does not need to, of course - produce the following consequences: Russian Provisional Government sees the futility of staying in the war and concludes separate peace, no October Revolution, no Soviet Union, no elimination of Ukrainian grain from world market, less of an agricultural spike elsewhere in the 1920s; WW1 ends in stalemate, no British hegemony in Arabia, less cheap oil in the West; central Europe more politically and economically stable, no Weimar instability, no Hitler, no Autobahnen, no WW2, no Eisenhower; probably no progress enthusiasm of the "Roaring Twenties", socio-cultural patterns including self-concepts of the middle classes resembling to a greater degree those developing pre-WW1; no cultural etc. exodus from Berlin, Vienna etc., US looks e.g. to EUrope for cultural inspiration at least as much as the other way round (virtualy everything upon which, say, "Rebels Without a Cause" was based, is removed by now)... You can take it from here. Or you could take tons of other routes, where, just like always in alternate history, small changes will produce great divergences. Of course, the above scenario could also produce different consequences, in which US infrastructure resembles OTL more closely. But it doesn't have to. It's not ingrained in a "US mentality", nor is it determined by the natural geography of North America or anything else beyond human control.

Wow, you just Carl Saganed AH, that was beautiful. Thanks for that.

I remember a thread several years ago where we tracked development patterns in the US (which determine transportation patterns) way way way back. We went to the first planned suburbs and looked at what they were trying to emulate- the grand estates of the wealthy writ small. We thought about how the aesthetics of those estates came about. About the lawn as a status symbol- think about what it says that you can afford to keep a large tract of your land from the plow; not only is it not making you money, it's costing you money and SO MUCH effort to maintain pre-John Deere.

That kind of aristocratic peacocking is understandable. But it also comes out of the cultural patterns first set down by the French, when they were the ones the rest of Europe emulated. And all the peacocking they did was a result of our dear Sun King trying to keep them busy and not rebelling so that he could rule absolute.

So all we need to do is figure out the right triggers that make Louis say "L'etat c'est zones urbaines" and we've got a POD.

More seriously you're right, it's hard to stop people from spreading out. But we also have to recognize that the degree to which we've spread out has been heavily subsidized beyond any funding rail might have received in the past or could receive in the future. These living patterns were as engineered as any, and we've got plenty of examples of nations with low population densities that didn't adopt these living patterns.
 

elkarlo

Banned
The issue of the 20th century is the automobile. Convenience and freedom of the automobile is the attraction. You will need costlier auto travel to quell the rush away from trains. Also faster and better train service. The use of toll roads instead of interstate highways, added fuel and horsepower taxes, and higher registration and licensing requirements would push consumers toward rail.
Also in the 70s-80s a lot of public transportation became very dangerous. Need to do something about rampant crime.
 

Riain

Banned
More seriously you're right, it's hard to stop people from spreading out. But we also have to recognize that the degree to which we've spread out has been heavily subsidized beyond any funding rail might have received in the past or could receive in the future. These living patterns were as engineered as any, and we've got plenty of examples of nations with low population densities that didn't adopt these living patterns.

I agree, trains were not simply out competed they were out subsidised.
 
If one can afford to travel by car, why would I want to be squeezed into the subway train like a sardine? This is a pretty common scene in the Various Tokyo subways.

Also, automobile serves an importance niche even in cities that have good public transport. People's live don't just revolve between work and home. Public transport needs to be able to meet the need of people going to other location for fun and nightlife. However, most public transport stop at 2200 due to uneven passenger flow. Taxi and automobile serve this niche well.

For some reason, always had difficulty getting people to understand me when I said, "I need a system that goes from where I am to where I want or need to go, when I want or need to go, and allows me to change my mind." Only thing that fits that bill is individual transport...the car beats feet, bikes, horsies, cabs, and Segways...what else can I say.
 
Last edited:

marathag

Banned
I agree, trains were not simply out competed they were out subsidised.
Loss of Mail contracts to airmail killed whatever chance of passenger rail coming close to breaking even, outside the NEC.
RPOs and REA cars were the money makers for passenger trains everywhere else, not the people

Replacing mail contracts with flat subsidy payments would be a hard sell in Congress in 1967
 
I've wondered for more than a few years now why the mail car hasn't reappeared on the Northeast Corridor, as well as contracting with FedEx and UPS....just makes too much sense not to...
 
Also IIUC anti-trust laws broke up synergies power companies and tram systems had previously.
The Public Utility Holding Company Act of 1935, it banned regulated companies–the power companies–from engaging in unregulated business ventures. This meant that they had to sell off either the regulated or unregulated companies if they wanted to keep the other, which comparing a growing power sector and a stalling–or actually declining streetcar business–made it a fairly obvious choice to sell off the streetcars. This put the newly independent streetcar firms in a worse position as they now had to pay commercial rates for their power supplies.


Michigan: 175, but actually 235 b/c the upper peninsula is virtually empty.
Yeah, no. You don't get to argue that certain states have a higher population density than people think and then turn around and discount large sections of them because they're 'virtually empty' and bring down the average. That's just silly.


Most of those subways need government subsidy or are government owned. The suburb residents are unlikely to agreed to subsidy subway that they themselves seldom use.
I can't speak to the others but Transport for London who operate the Underground cover their operating costs via fares, which is why they have some of the comparatively highest in Europe IIRC. They still require government funding for capital costs though. The star of them all is Hong Kong's Mass Transit Railway thanks to a combination of geography, government policy, and very smart property development projects.


I have no doubt that if it were optimally run, NYC subway could do this too.
Good luck with that. IIRC the current situation is due to bickering between state and city governments plus politicians using it as a free pot of money and diverting funds to questionable projects. How you unfuck it I do not know, and the maintenance backlog is going to be financially crippling.
 
Last edited:
The Public Utility Holding Company Act of 1935, it banned regulated companies–the power companies–from engaging in unregulated business ventures. This meant that they had to sell off either the regulated or unregulated companies if they wanted to keep the other, which comparing a growing power sector and a stalling–or actually declining streetcar business–made it a fairly obvious choice to sell off the streetcars. This put the newly independent streetcar firms in a worse position as they now tad to pay commercial rates for their power supplies.



Yeah, no. You don't get to argue that certain states have a higher population density than people think and then turn around and discount large sections of them because they're 'virtually empty' and bring down the average. That's just silly.



I can't speak to the others but Transport for London who operate the Underground cover their operating costs via fares, which is why they have some of the comparatively highest in Europe IIRC. They still require government funding for capital costs though. The star of them all is Hong Kong's Mass Transit Railway thanks to a combination of geography, government policy, and very smart property development projects.



Good luck with that. IIRC the current situation is due to bickering between state and city governments plus politicians using it as a free pot of money and diverting funds to questionable projects. How you unfuck it I do not know, and the maintenance backlog is going to be financially crippling.

Considering the physical separation of the upper and lower penninsula, yes I can separate them. Not only did I factor the population taken off (about 300000) into the number for the lower peninsula, but I also provided the density for both combined.

When I speak on the NYC subway, I'm purely talking hypotheticals. The subway if it trimmed down the amount of employees and their salaries, streamlined it's management, and ran more adds could make over 125 percent of it's operating money without any contributions from the city or state if done properly.

But that's not ever gonna happen.

I also discounted mantienence because it's rather unique to NYC due to the sheer amount of mismanagement over decades and decades. Factoring in that means city/state money would still be needed, but if the other steps I listed were done it would be much less than what is needed otl.

So much less, in fact, that I bet that they could get the mantienence done quicker and better.

It's practically asb, but I can dream.
 
Wow, you just Carl Saganed AH, that was beautiful. Thanks for that.
Thank you so much for the compliment!

I remember a thread several years ago where we tracked development patterns in the US (which determine transportation patterns) way way way back. We went to the first planned suburbs and looked at what they were trying to emulate- the grand estates of the wealthy writ small. We thought about how the aesthetics of those estates came about. About the lawn as a status symbol- think about what it says that you can afford to keep a large tract of your land from the plow; not only is it not making you money, it's costing you money and SO MUCH effort to maintain pre-John Deere.
That sounds like an interesting discussion - I couldn't find it, though, do you still have a clue as to how to retrieve it?

But we also have to recognize that the degree to which we've spread out has been heavily subsidized beyond any funding rail might have received in the past or could receive in the future. These living patterns were as engineered as any, and we've got plenty of examples of nations with low population densities that didn't adopt these living patterns.
I absolutely agree.

For some reason, always had difficulty getting people to understand me when I said, "I need a system that goes from where I am to where I want or need to go, when I want or need to go, and allows me to change my mind." Only thing that fits that bill is individual transport...the car beats feet, bikes, horsies, cabs, and Segways...what else can I say.
But with a PoD in WW1, it wouldn't be you and me (and those other people you're referring to) talking to each other, it would be very different people with different cultural models, having grown used to very different expectations.
I mean, of course I can say "I need a system that gets me in a second to where I want to be when I say "Beam me up, Scotty!" ", but IOTL's present that's a nonsensical statement yet (and probably will always be for scientific reasons, but who knows, let's not de-RAIL the thread), so maybe those other people talking to each other in ATL's 2019 USA would consider your statement similarly outlandish.
(If that would be a worse world is still up for debate, I'd say - after all, because we CAN commute in such wild ways, we are also EXPECTED TO, and I, for one, hate to drive to have to drive to my workplace 40 km away from where I live on crowded motorways (and no matter how many motorways you build, they're always going to be crowded), which is why I do it very rarely and have moved into an apartment that's only 50 m away from a railway station.)
 

Riain

Banned
Replacing mail contracts with flat subsidy payments would be a hard sell in Congress in 1967

I'm not talking about cash payments,; rather that governments of all levels used public money to build roads, backed by all sorts of planning and other favourable legislation while not doing much if anything for rail.
 
A few random observations.
Street cars were well and truly on the way out by 1920 in all but the largest cities.
Local trains (short distance) was welland truly going away by 1940.
No one even in Europe wants to take a train on a trip that takes longer then about 4 hours even at 150mph average that is 500 to 600 miles max after that it becomes Air travel.
Even THOSE distance people would take the plane if it was going where they want and was cost affordable.
Europe has a TON of inter cities commuter flights.
Airplanes have the advantage that they can connect any two cities by building a simple airport at both. Trains need long complicated track systems that can’t easily change routes. This means if a railroad guess wrong about what cities will become big the are screwed but the airlines simple change routes.
Cars were getting popular welol before the Expressway system and even before good local roads.
Pretty much everywhere in the world mass transit only works if one of the following is true
-people can’t aford cars.
-congestion/traffic is SO bad that car travel truly sucks.
Think about it you have t make car travel WORSE then using mass transit or you will not have folks use it.
That last point can not be stressed enough. You can’t realy make mass transit good as the cost even in London would be prohibitive (look how expensive it is to add a new line, and how many stations still don’t have elevators or escalators) and you can’t get around the dedicated routes at dedicated schedules so in reality you are forced to make car travel WORSE.
Europe is not as Train/subway/metro dedicated as people here think they are. I have been in Germany, England, France, Italy and Switzerland a number of times ranging from the Mid 70s up to last fall and thier are a LOT more cars then many people would think. Basically every major City from London to Paris to Munich to Cologne to Rome all have pretty much so many cars at any given moment that they have reached maximum capacity. So everyone beyond those numbers is FORCED to use mass transit. It is not a choice.
And in England, Germany and France (at least around major cities in France) the expressways are PACKED. I have been in so many traffic jams on intercity expressways that I can’t count them all. So let’s quit pretending that people in Europe love to travel on mass transit any more then they do in the US.
The difference is that in general density is higher and the government backs the system better.
So if you want that in the Us you need the government to back what is otherwise in general a money losing operation.

The problem with getting that is a Senator or Congress member from a less dense state is NEVER going to willingly vote for spending tons of money on mass transit when it does not benefit them. So it is all but impossible to get enough money through Congress when the Eastern seaboard and the west coast will benefit but the rest of the country, not so much.
The advantages of smaller countries with more uniformly dense population is they don’t have this problem.
 

SwampTiger

Banned
Reading the last several posts, I am wondering if the discussion of self-driving vehicles is a desire for the best of both mass transit and automobiles, a method to get where you want with the least effort and inconvenience. The effort to reduce congestion by automating the roadway, similar to trains and trams, by removing the human bug in the system.

I agree the US congress will not support mass transit without offering some consolation amendment to 'middle' America. The various competing interests for Federal funding limits available investment. I would expect slightly better results for tax incentives to mass transit systems. Either way, it is unlikely to provide sufficient capital for development. Your best chance is probably part of the New Deal package of funding.
 
High speed trains are hideously expensive. Just the cost of the bridges of to avoid grade crossings is so high. This is why the US will never and has never built much of it. The cost can not be justified by most of the people that will be expected to pay for it. Because most people will not benefit from it. Any place you build HSR will be so far from the rest of the country that 90% of the population won’t benefit from it.
If you put it in New England then anything on the west coast won’t benefit and if you put it in California then the other 49 states won’t benefit. And pretty much anyplace you put it Alaska, Hawaii and the upper Midwest will NEVER benefit.
So unless you are planing on building a system that covers the entire west coast, the entire east coast and stretches into the Mid West at least as far as Chicago and St Louis you will never get enough support to agree to pay for it.
This is the problem with the size of the US. No matter where you want to build HSR it will be a thousand miles away from most of the people in the country.
But in the smaller countries that you typically see HSR in such as France and Germany you can’t get THAT far from it.
Remember that the US is so large that most citizens have not been to even half the states. And that huge parts of the population will never be in parts of the country. In order to get acceptance of HSR you would have to build it on the scale of the highway system and pretty much no country in the world has done that. Nor can anyone afford that.
In a typical sized country you only need to start with a couple relatively short lines to get to the point that many people (if not most) will think that it is a system that they may want to use or will otherwise benefit from. In the US you could build two lines a thousand miles each. One up each coast and you still will leave the majority of the states to view it as useless as far as they are concerned.
In France a larger percentage of the country is close enough to the original north south line that they can take a train connection to the line, us the HSR line then take a train from there to thier destination.
In the US to get anything close to that percentage you would have to take an Airplane to the HSR, then take the HSR then take an airplane from the HSR to your destination. So what is the point?


As for “smart cars” or “driverless cars”. I wonder if this may be the solution for mass transit.
Picture a system that allows you to summon a car. The car takes you a few miles to rapid transit system then when you get off at the other end a car picks you up and takes you the rest of the way. This allows a few lines to run a lot of trains and still reach a large area.
The problem is the cost of the cars. You will need a rediculus number of cars that will mostly be used two or three times a day. Once or twice in the morning rush hour and once or twice in the evening rush. And it is hard to justify the cost of a $50,000+ smart car for a total of 35 trips a week or 2000 trips a year or 10000 trips in its lifetime. Each trip will cost 6 to 10 just to pay for the car. Not counting maintenance and operating costs and profit.

If we get to the point that most folks don’t own a car and rely on these then the system may get cheaper but outside of large cities such as New York this is still probably not very practical at least for a long time.
 
Uhh, that doesn't disprove my point. I said upper Midwest as in: Ohio, Michigan, Indiana, Illinois, and wisconsin. Maybe I did a bad definition, what I meant was GREAT LAKES Midwest.

Ohio: 283
Michigan: 175, but actually 235 b/c the upper peninsula is virtually empty
Indiana: 183
Illinois: 232
Wisconsin: 106
And upstate NY: 228

Now, when you factor in Greece, fyrom, Albania, and others into Eastern Europe you see that upper Midwest and eastern Europe have similar population densities.

The other Midwestern states have low population density, but they have very little population overall compared to the ones in mentioned, and are not on the great lakes. Minnesota doesn't count because it's part of lake Superior is like upper Michigan.

I'm not trying to deny that the Midwest as a whole is low density, but the great lakes states is where most of the Midwest actually lives, so, it's not a fair comparison to make with eastern europe.

As for the north east:
Nj: 1201
Rode island: 1017
Connecticut: 743
Massachusetts: 858
New Hampshire: 147 (an outlier, but it's on the edge of the northeast)
Downstate ny: 1382
Delaware: 475
Maryland: 610
Virginia: 210
Pennsylvania: 285

As for Western Europe:
Uk (whole): 717
Britian: 1000 or so
France: 295
Netherlands: 1080
Belgium: 919
Italy: 518
Portugal: 298
Spain: 236
Germany: 593
Switzerland: 495
Denmark: 332

Wisconsin has all of one city of note, Milwaukee., Michigan has one city of note , Detroit and that one has been declining for the last 50 years, Illionois has one city of note, Chicago. The only rail in the area that makes sense is Milwaukee-Chicago. Outside of Detroit there are no other big cities and no one wants to go to Detroit.
 
Wisconsin has all of one city of note, Milwaukee., Michigan has one city of note , Detroit and that one has been declining for the last 50 years, Illionois has one city of note, Chicago. The only rail in the area that makes sense is Milwaukee-Chicago. Outside of Detroit there are no other big cities and no one wants to go to Detroit.
This.. doesn't disprove my point. I agree that high speed rail is unviable now, but my point was that the great lakes Midwest (which Wisconsin and milwaukee are at the edge of) have a similar population density to eastern Europe now.

Thus, with similar growth patterns to otl, a pod 70-80 years from now that sees railroads remaining stronger means that at the least, a high speed Midwestern line WOULD be financially viable in theory.

(Important: this is all theory crafting)

This p.o.d. as a bonus probably weakens the stagnation of population of the Midwest, so with Chicago, Detroit, buffalo, and Cleveland remaining strong so the Midwest as a whole probably has 10-20 million more people than otl, which helps the case for a "Lakeshore line" even further.

I imagine it goes like: Milwaukee-chicago-southbend-toledo(spur to detroit)-cleveland, then 2 different routes, one through Pittsburg, reading, and ending in philadelphia, and another going to Erie-buffalo-rochester-syracuse-albany-nyc, are possible.

This, of course assumes at the very least a dc-nyc high speed line is alreadly operational.
 
Top