AHC: fracture arabic

What about Cariene is different in it's grammer from Arabic? Sorry, I'm not particularly well-versed in the subject.

Well, Cairene as well as most Arabic dialects lacks case inflection (I'rab), mostly lacks dual, and has a prevalent Subject-verb word order. Standard Arabic has case inflection (though often the relevant endings are dropped) uses dual number, and generally has a verb-subject order though this is not really obligatory. Also, moods and times are often marked in Cairene with prefixes that Standard and Classical Arabic do not use.
Just pointing at some of the most glaring differences.
 
I don't really understand most of this sentence (I'm not a native English speaker) but, regarding what I do understand, I don't see how you need different training to understand other dialect. Indigenous Arabic speakers don't have to need training to understand other dialects, we just have a sort of mutual understanding or way of thinking when talking to people who speak other dialects. The same should be for people teaching themselves to learn Arabic. All you need is exposure to other dialects and some critical thinking to understand any Arabic speaker.
"Training" comes in the form of the learning of Standard Arabic, both through formal education and exposure. I'd say it offers a common ground onto which the dialect differences can be "mapped" and understood, again, provided there is exposure.
For a foreign student it is of course more difficult (source: personal experience).
 
I would say that there are two factors determining if two 'Arab' speakers can understand each other.
1. Level of education of the speakers
2. Geographical distance
(Thought the thread could use a summary)
 
Indeed, but because they're used to hearing and processing various differences : on the other hand, I can tell you that a significant of French speakers are unable to really understand French canadian without subtitles and it's still definitely the same language.

Why is that though? Isn't it the same as in Arabic? I thought French is the same everywhere.

Well, Cairene as well as most Arabic dialects lacks case inflection (I'rab), mostly lacks dual, and has a prevalent Subject-verb word order. Standard Arabic has case inflection (though often the relevant endings are dropped) uses dual number, and generally has a verb-subject order though this is not really obligatory. Also, moods and times are often marked in Cairene with prefixes that Standard and Classical Arabic do not use.

Yeah I have noticed what you're talking about but I don't think it's that hard to learn. Egyptian Arabic is the most well-known Arabic.

Btw, when you're talking about Standard Arabic, you do mean fusha?

"Training" comes in the form of the learning of Standard Arabic, both through formal education and exposure. I'd say it offers a common ground onto which the dialect differences can be "mapped" and understood, again, provided there is exposure.

Actually, most Arabic speakers have trouble understanding and speaking fusha (there have been many Arab educators and linguists who have talked about the issue and ways to solve it). Peculiarly, all the Arabic speakers I have met who don't understand fusha also understand dialects outside their own (although geography does play a factor).
 
@H.Flashman(VC)

In conclusion, Arabic dialects are a sort of kind of maybe type of language. They're basically the middle ground between "fully-fledged language" and "just a dialect".

In either case, for this challenge to actually be successful you need to go farther back than the 1930s for it to work.
 
Why is that though? Isn't it the same as in Arabic? I thought French is the same everywhere.



Yeah I have noticed what you're talking about but I don't think it's that hard to learn. Egyptian Arabic is the most well-known Arabic.

Btw, when you're talking about Standard Arabic, you do mean fusha?



Actually, most Arabic speakers have trouble understanding and speaking fusha (there have been many Arab educators and linguists who have talked about the issue and ways to solve it). Peculiarly, all the Arabic speakers I have met who don't understand fusha also understand dialects outside their own (although geography does play a factor).
Yes, I meant fusha, or some approximation thereof (the modern, somewhat simplified variety of it). A complete knowledge of "Arabic" requires mastering that as well, since it is used widely in formal context (TV news) and almost exclusively in formal writing (most novels, newspapers etc.). While many Arab people do not speak it fluently, some education in it is very widespread and this helps smoothing out differences among dialects and offering a degree of common ground (alongside, as you said, the widespread use of Egyptian Arabic in movies and other media making it well known). Most non-Arabic students of Arabic start out with fusha and then learn some dialect (if they ever do; I specialized on Classical Arabic and my ability to use spoken registers is quite limited).
Also, the grammatical pecularities I listed for Cairene Arabic as opposed to fusha are shared by the vast majority of other spoken Arabic varieties, so that the basic structure of grammar is, in many respects, closer between say Egyptian and Moroccan than between fusha and either vernacular (there of course exceptions though). This is another level helping a degree of mutual intelligibility given exposure. For a comparison, Italian and Spanish are certainly seen as different languages and, while quite close, are not actually mutually intelligible; but, given adequante exposure, Italians usually manage to reach a level of Spanish sufficient for most basic needs, though not necessarily an entirely correct one, in a few weeks or months (some complementary study hastens the process). The reverse is also mostly true. The two systems are so similar that acquisition is relatively easy (though not complete in this way alone). Some Arabic dialects are more different grammatically than this, but then there are other commonalities easing the process. Also, while French is a Romance language like Italian and Spanish, the same process does not apply there. My personal experience is probably not to be generalized, but I had to learn French by studying it (and studying it hard, though it was not particularly difficult) for years in class. I have a good mastery of Spanish that I acquired with a bit of study (by myself) some reading practice, and exposure (both in Spain and with Spanish speakers in Italy).
 
Why is that though? Isn't it the same as in Arabic? I thought French is the same everywhere.

Canadian French pronunciation has some differences from other French dialects. The vowel sounds are a bit different and sometimes consonants as well. For example, "tu dis" becomes more like "tsu dzis". Also, some vocabulary is different. Most people can adapt to these differences after they have been in the country a little while (I did) but if you have never been to Canada and only hear it rarely on TV/radio, it can sound strange.

The differences are essentially in the spoken language - in written form it's the same except just a little vocabulary.
 
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It depends. Most French people could watch a news program from Québec without difficulty, as those use more standard language. Conversely, hearing a random conversation can be tougher, especially if the person uses a lot of slang. The slang is entirely different.
It also depends if it's a conversation between two Quebecois or with 'strangers'. I once met two Quebecois students on a trip through Europe, who i perfectly could understand when they spoke French to me, but absolutely not when they were talking amongst each other.
 
I'm moroccan and I always need to change to Fusha to be understood by non-maghrebis. But I understand the majority of other arab dialects. I think that Darija has more Amazigh words than french.
Here's a good video about Darija
 

Deleted member 109224

If you weaken Pan-Arabism the Maghrebi states will likely just consider Derja separate from Arabic. The Algerian government historically tried to suppress Derja in favor of standard Arabic but the public has been quite resistant to this.


Alternatively, have France keep Algeria and Italy Libya. Morocco and Tunisia, geographically separated from the rest of the Arab World, go on to differentiate their identities further from being arab.


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Given that this is the pre-1900 section, maybe Tunisia and Algeria remain independent and modernize itself. As they embrace their own national identities, they declare their unique regional dialects as distinct from Arabic.
 
with a PoD of the abbasid revolt against the ummayyads, have arabic in different regions (egypt, n.africa, the levant and the arabian peninsula) fracture into different languages by today. how could this be accomplished?
Like Chinese, Arabic from Mauritania to Iraq is united by a single language of education, culture, and literacy which all feel obliged to aspire to. Break that connection (as has been done on Malta and with the Dungan people of Central Asia) and the rest is easy.
 
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