AHC: Export options for the B-58 Hustler

[steamboy]

Another example of the US making an overly specialised aircraft was https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/North_American_A-5_Vigilante

I mean on paper its great, long range, fast, decent range but the weird ass bomb 'bay' where they had to design specific weapons for it meant that it was basically ONLY good for one thing, nuclear armageddon or PRU and it was too specialised for anything else. And that's a lot of money spent on the platform and its R&D and it suffers from the same issues as the B-58. Its designed in too narrow a focus and that hyperfocus means that in anything other than a nuclear slapfight its basically a very expensive toy.

And unless you've got nukes, or want a verrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrry expensive recon sled, there's basically no export market for the B-58. Its like if Ferrari started going and trying to market their 296 GTB as a perfectly normal car for popping to the shops or picking your kid up from school. Yes in theory you could use it for that role, buuuuuuuut....not the best use of it. Same with the B-58, yes it can be used as a recon sled, but at the time with the SAM threat and the like would you want to risk your very expensive strategic weapon in such a role?

 

[DougM]

I dont know if i was a kid I would think it was a perfect car for my folks to pick me up in! (especially in middle school and high school before i could drive)

 

[steamboy]

I dont know if i was a kid I would think it was a perfect car for my folks to pick me up in! (especially in middle school and high school before i could drive)

that noise you can barely hear is the ghost of Mr Ferrari screaming in rage and fear at such a notion. Plus would you trust a car like that on bumpy and potholed roads or worse speed bumps Plus putting a car like that in a 20mph zone is a crime against automobiles

 

[Ramontxo]

that noise you can barely hear is the ghost of Mr Ferrari screaming in rage and fear at such a notion. Plus would you trust a car like that on bumpy and potholed roads or worse speed bumps Plus putting a car like that in a 20mph zone is a crime against automobiles

Once a time a certain tractor maker meet Mr Ferrari to tell him that the clutches of his Ferraris were the same he used for his machinery just more expensive. The conversation heated up until Enzo told him "That a tractor maker couldn't understand his cars"
The tractor maker was Ferruccio Lamborghini and his name became a legend...

Edited for spelling mistakes

 

[DougM]

I don’t know I once encountered a Bugatti Veron (sp?) on the pothole filled expressway outside Detroit in rush hour. I actually passed him and eventually got so far in front of him I lost site of him. (It sounded amazing btw).
So if he could do that I am sure a modern Ferrari would do ok driving to school and back.
Heck I used to see a lot of Ferraris when I worked at one office in the wealthy suburb. It is not like most folks that own them are racing them.

 

[Monk78]

It’s expensive so can the saudis buy it ?

 

[DougM]

The key to the B-58 is if anyone had a use for it. As noted it was basically only good for use as a nuclear bomber. If you don’t need a nuclear bomber it is next to pointless.
And long term the high speed attack turned out to be short lived as well.
So by the time it was in service it was fast becoming obsolete. Add in the fact that the problem with it had yet to be completely worked out (if they could ever have been) and it is just not worst for most nations, and the few that had a possible use for it had their own aircraft industries and thus didn’t want to buy any airc from anywhere else.

 

[Nick P]

The most likely alternative user for the B-58 was the Soviet Union.
As an aircraft that was complicated, expensive to operate and had a high number of crashes it could have done significant harm to their offensive capability...

 

[Canuck Wingnut]

There's a perfectly obvious solution to the question of what role the Convair B-58 would fill if exported to another nation. It's the same as one that was seriously studied by Convair OTL for domestic use.

Of course, it happens to be batshit insane....

Ladies and Gentlemen, I present to you:

A supersonic passenger jet built on the Hustler airframe.

 

[DougM]

The sad part of this is that the B-58 was a good looking aircraft. I had a model and a toy of this when I was a kid and that and my SR71 or YF-12 and my F-14 models and toys where some of my favorite jets.
But sadly the B-58 was just to much to soon.

 

[steamboy]

There's a perfectly obvious solution to the question of what role the Convair B-58 would fill if exported to another nation. It's the same as one that was seriously studied by Convair OTL for domestic use.

Of course, it happens to be batshit insane....

Ladies and Gentlemen, I present to you:

A supersonic passenger jet built on the Hustler airframe.

 

[Monk78]

The key to the B-58 is if anyone had a use for it. As noted it was basically only good for use as a nuclear bomber. If you don’t need a nuclear bomber it is next to pointless.
And long term the high speed attack turned out to be short lived as well.
So by the time it was in service it was fast becoming obsolete. Add in the fact that the problem with it had yet to be completely worked out (if they could ever have been) and it is just not worst for most nations, and the few that had a possible use for it had their own aircraft industries and thus didn’t want to buy any airc from anywhere else.

How about a expensive royal aerial yacht for the Saudi royal family

 

[DougM]

Where is the Royal family members going yo sit?

 

[Monk78]

Where is the Royal family members going yo sit?

Bomb bay hopefully

 

[Blue cat]

It's a comparable aircraft to the Tu-22, which was operated (in small numbers) by Libya and Iraq, so non-US users aren't automatically out of the question. I just don't see anyone who's likely to actually want the thing.

The UK might be able to use it, but by the time it's on offer the British government has decided missiles are the future and are getting out of the bomber game. Also, it's not British, but depending on the timeframe that might be a selling point. Regardless of cost, that's them out.

France could use it, but it has two crippling flaws: it's not built by Dassault, and it's not powered by SNECMA engines. Regardless of cost, that's them out.

Australia could use it, and an effort was made to sell it to them, but they weren't interested. Presumably someone showed them the bill.

The weird possibilities are Argentina and South Africa, IMO. Argentina flew Lincolns, and was vaguely interested in buying Vulcans. South Africa inquired about Victors. Either might be interested in the B-58, provided someone else pays for them. That someone else can only really be the US, and I'm not sure why they'd pay.

Perhaps a long range supersonic interceptor variant might have been of interest to some nations ? But I suspect without sales to the USAF foreign sales of such an aircraft would seem unlikely ?

 

[DougM]

Problem is the B-58 does not have a bomb bay as you yto think of it, It has that funny pod. And I am not sure anyone wants to sit in something that was designed to be dropped. 😁
Besides it was a two part affair in that part held fuel and part held bombs. IIRC the fuel part was a bigger pod around the weapons pod and the fuel pod would be dropped first when empty leaving the weapon pod which dropped after the bombs did leaving a clean bomber to fly home.
A bit out but not a dumb idea. Of course this made it difficult to use conventionally and expensive too.
Thus limiting its use.
Now they were working on a bigger badder version when the whole thing was canceled for budget reasons,

 

[Monk78]

Perhaps a long range supersonic interceptor variant might have been of interest to some nations ? But I suspect without sales to the USAF foreign sales of such an aircraft would seem unlikely ?

Like a US equivalent of tu-128/28 fiddler ?

 

[La Rouge Beret]

Now they were working on a bigger badder version when the whole thing was canceled for budget reasons,

That's an intriguing prospect was the upgraded Hustler going to be like the changes made from the original F/A 18 Hornet to the Super Hornet?

Essentially, a completely new air frame that looks similar and, shares the same designation.

 

[BlueTrousers]

That's an intriguing prospect was the upgraded Hustler going to be like the changes made from the original F/A 18 Hornet to the Super Hornet?

The B-58B was to have had a fuselage extension of 8 feet, uprated J79 engines, and hardpoints to allow a bit more diversity in weapons and fuel carriage than the B-58A. It progressed far enough for a prototype to be ordered, and the USAF was interested in buying 185. There was also a proposed B-58C with a further fuselage extension and J58 engines without reheat, which would supposedly have cruised at Mach 2.4. The Model 58-9 SST was actually based on the B-58C.

The B-58D and B-58E were to have had shortened fuselages, just two J58 engines (this time with reheat), and were planned as an interceptor and a tactical bomber respectively. It's not clear how much they were something the USAF wanted to buy, and how much they were something Convair wanted to sell.

 

[jsb]

Yep no arguments here, it was far too ambitious a project and was appallingly managed. The resources would have been far better spent to developing aircraft like the Hunter and Lightning to their full potential. I’ve no doubt that had the government been prepared to throw enough money at it then it would have eventually come good, which is what the USAF did with the F-111. Unfortunately we didn’t have as big a wallet.

I mean, would the best TSR2 option not be to simply order a couple of interim squadrons fitted with Bucc systems to get them flying and then plan to use them for out of area/Europe use later once the real full equipped version is finished just like F111 had A/Ds with a very large upgrade? Having a couple of interim squadrons would allow the replacement of the V bombers that are getting old, so that would probably start to save some money?