Areas such as the Indus River Valley, the Yellow River, and the Fertile Crescent are often called the cradle of civilization. Your challenge if you choose to accept it is to have other major civilizations (on the scale of Ancient Eygpt, or Sumer) emerge in other parts of the world.
AHC: Differnt "cradles of civilization"
- Thread starter Elcheapodeca
- Start date
Miguel Cervantez
Banned
We can just go by archaeological records and talk about Romania and certain places in Africa.
Well if the America's can get some horses and more domesticable crops, perhaps the Mississippi Valley?
TFSmith121
Banned
Temperate river valleys in Eurasia/Neolithic Revolution
Along with the Nile, Mesopotamia, Indus, and northern China....
Maybe the Danube?
Or the Rhone?
Best,
Along with the Nile, Mesopotamia, Indus, and northern China....
Maybe the Danube?
Or the Rhone?
Best,
The Rhone would be interesting. The effects of a earlier developed Germany on world history would be interesting.
Didn't that one lost civilization in Romania have an early form of writing?
TFSmith121
Banned
I was thinking southern France;
I was thinking southern France, presumably around Arles and points north; the Camargue as fen country would suggest a need for flood control, etc.
Little too cold in northern Europe.
Dunno about the Danube, but it seems a temperate river valley/plain with adjoining hills/mountains has some natural advantages for a society transitioning to settlements and agriculture.
Best,
I was thinking southern France, presumably around Arles and points north; the Camargue as fen country would suggest a need for flood control, etc.
Little too cold in northern Europe.
Dunno about the Danube, but it seems a temperate river valley/plain with adjoining hills/mountains has some natural advantages for a society transitioning to settlements and agriculture.
Best,
There were indigenous urban centers in the Mississippi River Valley. The mound builders. Of course horses would have helped tremendously, but better Mesoamerican strains of corn would have helped stabilized their populations to have a comparable population size to the more southerly complex societies of the Americas. This option is entirely within the realm of possibility without rewriting tens of thousands of years of history if a reliable trade network could have been established. And there was direct trade between the Taino and Maya in OTL, so we're half way there already; but it had grown somewhat infrequent by the time Colombus stumbled upon the Caribbean.
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SunDeep
Banned
Isn't that Doggerland (or, as Stephen Baxter called it in his trilogy, Northland)? It's been done, and it is interesting.
The Balkans, especially the area around what is now Central Serbia.
It was one of the first places where agriculture began in Europe. It was urbanizing quickly (and may have been on track to developing a system of writing) before collapsing around 4200 BCE.
It was one of the first places where agriculture began in Europe. It was urbanizing quickly (and may have been on track to developing a system of writing) before collapsing around 4200 BCE.
Is it just me or did Native American civilizations collapse more frequently than their Eastern Hemisphere counterparts. The Toltecs lasted around 200 or so years, the city of Teotihuacan lasted roughly 300 years. The same probably holds true for the cultural empires around the Andes (200-400 year life span). The Aztecs also seemed to have been on the way out by Columbus's time. Could the relatively rapid rate of civilization collapse have resulted in the lack of trade routes to the Mississippi area? Perhaps if we could have some sort of stabilization that stops the sudden collapse and destruction of cities and empires it would aid in the importation of various goods from Mexico to the Mississippi.
Native Americans were entirely capable of doing something like that IMO. With a few changes it would be extremely possible.
Edit: Disclaimer: This is in no way to suggest that Native Americans are inferior to people living in the Eastern Hemisphere.
Native Americans were entirely capable of doing something like that IMO. With a few changes it would be extremely possible.
Edit: Disclaimer: This is in no way to suggest that Native Americans are inferior to people living in the Eastern Hemisphere.
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Not entirely so. I dont recall exactly, but i think Teotihuacan actually lasted longer than that, and some Mayan dynasties lasted more or less the entire history of their civilization, or so I gather - someone else should either confirm or deny that (with varying degrees of independence and power, mind you, but that's still existing).
It also depends a bit upon how you view a civilization and continuity.The Chimu, for example, were probably direct descendants of the Moche who had preceded them hundreds of years, and many Mesoamerican kingdoms saw themselves as successors to preceding ones, especially the Teotihuacanos (an analogy that could be applied to several old world entities, as well)
Norte Chico/Caral Supe and the Central Valley of Mexico are usually counted already..
TFSmith121
Banned
Yeah, but...the problem in the western hemisphere is a lack
Yes, potentially for agriculture (although it is pretty cold, and I think the population density is presumably much lower than in Eurasia) but the next problem in the western hemisphere is a lack of easily domesticable animals.
I think Eurasia (and northern Africa during the "lush" periods) pretty much has the advantage over the Americas, north or south.
Basically, the northern temperate band in Eurasia has a lot more going for it for people moving from semi-sedentary status to settled agriculture (including stockraising) than anywhere else on the planet.
Best,
Yes, potentially for agriculture (although it is pretty cold, and I think the population density is presumably much lower than in Eurasia) but the next problem in the western hemisphere is a lack of easily domesticable animals.
I think Eurasia (and northern Africa during the "lush" periods) pretty much has the advantage over the Americas, north or south.
Basically, the northern temperate band in Eurasia has a lot more going for it for people moving from semi-sedentary status to settled agriculture (including stockraising) than anywhere else on the planet.
Best,
The Aztecs weren't anywhere near a collapse at that point. It was the diseases, and the Spanairds organizing their rivals and tributaries against them that ended their empire. Before Cortes arrived, they were beginning to project their mercantile strength into the Guatemalan Highlands. This doesn't necessarily mean they were planning on military conquest soon or ever, but it does suggest they were hardly a declining power.
Ok. Interesting. I had no idea about that. I always had assumed that the Aztecs were standing somewhat close to the edge of a collapse (or great reduction) in their power and influence due to revolts from their tributaries and attacks from their enemies.
I meant more along the lines of a Rome like state that heavily influenced and had hegemony over an area. I thinking more along the lines of a major power that would build up trade networks and infrastructure. The Inka were heading in the right direction in terms of this and perhaps a long lasting Teotihuacan could archive the same effect. I guess its just hard to tell with some of these things because of the lack of translatable sources from classical Meso-America.
I would also second Peru and Meso America as an OTL cradle of civilization.
There was also increasing efforts by Montezuma to centralize power to Tenochtitlan more and more. They were directly influencing their partner's in the Triple Alliance (since the Aztec Empire was an alliance between the Mexica, Alcohua, and Tepanecas) choices for leaders, while appointing governors rather than local leaders farther abroad. It's class structure was also becoming hardened. Overall it was still a tributary empire, but it shows signs of transforming into something more entrenched.
Another thing to remember to, was the reason the Aztecs didn't call up a huge army right away to fight Cortes, was Montezuma was hoping to gain them as an ally, which was why they were allowed into the capital without much of a fuss.
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A continuation of these reforms would make for a very interesting time line especially if something was done like ISOT the Western Hemisphere to a virgin earth to avoid the issue of disease wiping out the local states.
BTW do you know any good books on the Aztecs?