AHC: Catherine of Aragon Mother-in-Law to...Anne Boleyn

Okay, this is an idea that I thought could be fun. Imagine Anne Boleyn succeeding Catherine of Aragon as queen - not because she is the new wife of the same husband, but because she is her daughter-in-law:D. I figure the most likely way to do this would be to have Catherine either have a son with Arthur, or to marry Henry ASAP (though the bottom end of the spectrum for Anne Boleyn's birth is around 1507, so a little wiggle-room I guess).

There you go, have at it
 
Or you know, have one of her many stillborns or dead children survive into adulthood. The New Year's Prince, the first Henry Duke of Cornwall, was born on 1511. Four years (assuming we go with 1507 as Anne's birth year) isn't as large an age gap as the seven between Catherine and Henry.

Though the question remains on why the younger Henry would marry Anne instead of a Habsburg or Portuguese cousin.
 
Ok, here's a quick thing to show how this may come about:

1502: Arthur Tudor, Prince of Wales dies. His bride, Catherine of Aragon, is discovered to be pregnant.

1503: Catherine of Aragon gives birth to Henry Tudor, who is made the Prince of Wales.

1509: Henry VII dies and the Prince of Wales ascends to Henry VIII, under the regency council, including his uncle, Henry Tudor, Duke of York.

1510: The betrothal between the Prince of Wales and Isabella of Austria is finalized. Henry Tudor, Duke of York marries Philiberta of Savoy, who is 12.

1513: Henry Tudor, Duke of York, welcomes his first child, Mary Tudor of York.

1516: Isabella of Austria arrives in England, to be married to Henry VIII of England. Henry Tudor, Duke of York, welcomes his second child, named Henry Tudor of York.

1517: Henry VIII welcomes his first child, named Catherine Tudor.

1518: Henry VIII welcomes his second child, named Arthur Tudor.

1520: Henry VIII welcomes his third child, named Margaret Tudor.

1522: Isabella of Austria, Queen of England, dies giving birth to twin boys, who die soon after the birth.

1523: There is scandal in the court as the King, now 20, announces he has married English noblewoman Anne Boleyn, the younger daughter of noted diplomat Thomas Boleyn. The union had been rumoured at, but only in the sense she was his mistress. However, they have all of their papers in order and Anne Boleyn is crown as Queen of England. There is animosity between the Princess Dowager and the young woman, who Catherine feels destroyed her son's chances at continuing the alliance with her family.
 
Or you know, have one of her many stillborns or dead children survive into adulthood. The New Year's Prince, the first Henry Duke of Cornwall, was born on 1511. Four years (assuming we go with 1507 as Anne's birth year) isn't as large an age gap as the seven between Catherine and Henry.

Though the question remains on why the younger Henry would marry Anne instead of a Habsburg or Portuguese cousin.

Well, I was thinking that Anne would end up as a second wife rather than a first, for instance he could marry Archduchess/Infanta X, she dies, and he's so besotted with Anne that he marries her as his new wife before another marriage can be contracted - sort of a la Mary Tudor and Charles Brandon
 
Well, one, combining Catherine's genes (victor at Flodden who had the Scots king beheaded) with Anne's is gonna result in a kickass monarch! The piety and insecurity of Bloody Mary, plus Elizabeth's vanity and viciousness and England's in for a fun time.

Just a question, does this spawn have to end up as king/queen of England? Or do they just need to exist?
 
Just a question, does this spawn have to end up as king/queen of England? Or do they just need to exist?

I guess not, it would just be awesome if they did. I'd be interested to know how Catherine would regard Anne (two suns sharing the same firmament? Especially since pro-Habsburg Catherine is likely to be at odds with pro-French Anne), and how would English religious life proceed with no "Great Matter"?

Plus, Anne's family, do the Boleyns perhaps fly higher? Thomas always viewed Mary's second husband as a "marriage down" for her, and certainly unsuitable, so might Mary get a better match (who?)?
 

Deleted member 96349

This is such a fun idea to play with! I'd want to see a Tudor/Boleyn child on the throne so I've come up with this:


1500
  • Mary Boleyn is born at Blickling Hall in Norfolk
1501
  • At the 14th of November Arthur Tudor, Prince of Wales, marries Catherine of Aragon
1502
  • In January Catherine realises that she was pregnant, after only two months of marriage
  • In February Catherine fears she was almost suffering a miscarriage, but it appears to have only been regular pregnancy spotting. Catherine is not reassured.
  • In March Arthur gets ill as in OTL, but Catherine is spared as she went into an early confinement after her scary experience in February
  • Arthur dies the 2nd of April. King Henry VII and Queen Elizabeth of York sends their personal physicians and midwives to care for Catherine during her pregnancy, as they could not bear to lose what is left of their first born child
  • Prince Arthur is born the 1st of August at Ludlow Castle in Shropshire
1503
  • Margaret Tudor, daughter of Henry VII and Queen Elizabeth marries King james IV of Scotland
1504
  • George Boleyn is born at Hever Castle in Kent
1507
  • Anne Boleyn is born at Hever Castle in Kent
  • Margaret Tudor gives birth to James, Duke of Rothesay
1508
  • George Boleyn is sent to Ludlow as a schoolroom companion to Prince Arthur
  • James, Duke of Rothesay dies
1509
  • The King's mother, Margaret Beaufort, dies the 29th of June
  • Margaret Tudor gives birth to Arthur, Duke of Rothesay
1510
  • Arthur, Duke of Rothesay dies
1512
  • Margaret Tudor gives birth to another James, Duke of Rothesay
1513
  • Anne Boleyn is sent to the court of Margaret of Austria
  • Mary Boleyn joins the English court, as a companion to the Princess Mary Tudor, daughter of Henry VII and Queen Elizabeth
  • A betrothal is announced between King Arthur, and his cousin Mary of Austria, his aunt Joanna of Castile's daughter.
1514
  • Henry VII dies of unknown causes the 21st of April
  • Arthur is crowned King a month later, his uncle Henry, the Duke of York, is his regent.
  • Queen Elizabeth of York dies a few days after her grandson's coronation.
  • Henry, Duke of York, marries the Princess Dowager, his sister-in-law, with a papal dispensation.
  • Margaret Tudor's fourth son Alexander, Duke of Ross is born
1515
  • A betrothal is announced between Charles, Duke of Burgundy, and Princess Mary Tudor.
  • Thomas Boleyn is named the English ambassador to France
  • Anne Boleyn joins her father at the French court, as a companion to Princess Renée of France
  • Alexander, Duke of Ross dies
1516
  • Charles, Duke of Burgundy, and Mary Tudor marry.
  • Mary Boleyn is leaving with Mary Tudor as one of her English ladies
  • Charles' grandfather, Ferdinand II of Aragon, dies, leaving the regency of his mother Joanna's kingdoms entirely in his hands.
  • Mary of York is born. Her half-brother is the king, but she is in the line of succession through her father, Henry, who is her brother's uncle.
1517
  • Catherine of Aragon, Duchess of York, gives birth to a stillborn son.
  • Mary Tudor gives birth to her first child, a daughter named Eleanor.
1518
  • King Arthur rules in favour of the Boleyns in the Boleyn-Butler feud, and Thomas Boleyn is declared the 8th Earl of Ormond.
  • Piers Butler keeps his lands, and his granted the title Earl of Ossory
  • Mary Boleyn is called home as she is to marry Pier's son, James Butler
1519
  • · Mary of Austria arrives in England
  • Catherine of Aragon gives birth to a son, Henry of York

1520
  • King Arthur and Mary of Austria marry the 14th of May
  • In October Queen Mary announces a pregnancy, but it ends in a miscarriage about a month later.
  • Anne Boleyn is called home to attend her new Queen

1521
  • Mary Tudor gives birth to her second child, Philip of Austria
  • Catherine of Aragon gives birth to a daughter, Isabella of York

1522
  • Queen Mary gives birth to a healthy daughter 17th of February, Princess Catherine of England, but she dies of childbed fever the 20th.

1523
  • King Arthur shocks everyone by announcing his betrothal to the Lady Anne Boleyn
  • King Arthur and Lady Anne Boleyn marry the 1st of June.

Henry VII + Elizabeth of York
  • Arthur Tudor (1486-1502) + Catherine of Aragon (1485-?)
    • King Arthur (1502-?) + (1) Mary of Austria (1505-1522)+ (2) Anne Boleyn(1507-?)
      • (1)Catherine of England (1522-?)
    • Margaret Tudor + King James IV of Scotland
      • James, Duke of Rothesay (1507-1508)
      • Arthur, Duke of Rothesay (1509-1510)
      • James, Duke of Rothesay (1512-?)
      • Alexander, Duke of Ross (1514-1515)
    • Henry, Duke of York (1491)+ Catherine of Aragon (1485-?)
      • Mary of York (1516-?)
      • Henry of York (1519-?)
      • Isabella of York (1521-?)
    • Mary Tudor + Charles, Duke of Burgundy
      • Eleanor of Austria (1517-?)
      • Philip of Austria (1521-?)

TBC
 
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Deleted member 96349

1524
  • Mary Boleyn gives birth to a son named Thomas
  • George Boleyn is betrothed to Jane Parker
  • Thomas Boleyn is given his second title, Viscount Rochford.
1525
  • Queen Anne gives birth to Edward, Prince of Wales
  • Mary of York is betrothed to her cousin James, Duke of Rothesay
  • Maximiliam I, the Holy Roman Emperor dies.
  • Charles, Duke of Burgundy, Maximiliam’s grandson is elected Holy Roman Emperor, and styles himself King of Spain. He’s now Charles V
  • Thomas Boleyn is made the 1st Duke of Wiltshire
1526
  • George Boleyn marries Jane Parker
  • James IV of Scotland dies in a hunting accident, his son James, Duke of Rothesay, is now James V of Scotland
  • Catherine of England is betrothed to her cousin Philip of Austria.
  • Mary Boleyn gives birth to a daughter, Anne Butler
1527
  • Mary Tudor gives birth to twins, Joanna and Charles of Austria. Mary dies 5 days after the birth because of childbed fever.
  • Charles V marries Renée of France, after only a month’s betrothal
  • Queen Anne gives birth to a daughter, Mary of England.

1528
  • Joanna of Austria dies
  • Renée of France gives birth to a son, John of Austria
  • Jane Parker gives birth to a daughter, Anne “Nan” Boleyn
1529
  • Mary Boleyn gives birth to a son named James Butler
  • Mary of York is married to James V
1530
  • Henry of York is betrothed to the Queen’s cousin, Katherine Howard.
  • Jane Parker gives birth to a son named Thomas Boleyn
  • Eleanor of Austria is betrothed to Francis III Duke of Brittany, King Francis of France’s oldest son.
  • Queen Anne gives birth to a son, Arthur, Duke of Bedford

Henry VII + Elizabeth of York
  • Arthur Tudor (1486-1502) + Catherine of Aragon (1485-?)
    • King Arthur (1502-?) + (1) Mary of Austria (1505-1522)+ (2) Anne Boleyn(1507-?)
      • (1)Catherine of England (1522-?)
      • (2) Edward, prince of Wales (1525-?)
      • (2) Mary of England (1527-?)
      • (2) Arthur, Duke of Bedford (1530-?)
    • Margaret Tudor (1489-?) + King James IV of Scotland
      • James, Duke of Rothesay (1507-1508)
      • Arthur, Duke of Rothesay (1509-1510)
      • James V of Scotland (1512-?) + Mary of York (1516-?)
      • Alexander, Duke of Ross (1514-1515)
    • Henry, Duke of York (1491-?) + Catherine of Aragon (1485-?)
      • Mary of York (1516-?) + James V of Scotland (1512-?)
      • Henry of York (1519-?)
      • Isabella of York (1521-?)
    • Mary Tudor (1496-1527) + Charles V, Holy Roman Emperor (1500-?)
      • Eleanor of Austria (1517-?)
      • Philip of Austria (1521-?)
      • Joanna of Austria (1527-1528)
      • Charles of Austria (1527-?)
Thomas Boleyn + Elizabeth Howard
  • Mary Boleyn (1500-?) + James Butler
    • Thomas Butler (1524-?)
    • Anne Butler (1526-?)
    • James Butler (1529-?)
  • George Boleyn (1504-?) + Jane Parker
    • Anne “Nan” Boleyn (1528-?)
    • Thomas Boleyn (1530-?)
  • Anne Boleyn (1507-?) + King Arthur (1502-?)
    • Edward, Prince of Wales (1525-?)
    • Mary of England (1527-?)
    • Arthur, Duke of Bedford (1530-?)

·
TBC
 
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This is such a fun idea to play with! I'd want to see a Tudor/Boleyn child on the throne so I've come up with this:


Henry VII + Elizabeth of York
  • Arthur Tudor (1486-1502) + Catherine of Aragon (1485-?)
    • King Arthur (1502-?) + (1) Mary of Austria (1505-1522)+ (2) Anne Boleyn(1507-?)
      • (1)Catherine of England (1522-?)
    • Margaret Tudor + King James IV of Scotland
      • James, Duke of Rothesay (1507-1508)
      • Arthur, Duke of Rothesay (1509-1510)
      • James, Duke of Rothesay (1512-?)
      • Alexander, Duke of Ross (1514-1515)
    • Henry, Duke of York (1491)+ Catherine of Aragon (1485-?)
      • Mary of York (1516-?)
      • Henry of York (1519-?)
      • Isabella of York (1521-?)
    • Mary Tudor + Charles, Duke of Burgundy
      • Eleanor of Austria (1517-?)
      • Philip of Austria (1521-?)

TBC

uh, there already was a tudor-boleyn child on the English throne - Elizabeth I.

But what I actually wanted to say was that the Pope isn't going to grant the dispensation to Henry Duke of York to marry Catalina of Aragon, Dowager Princess of Wales: she's got a child by his brother - living, screaming, kicking, pooping proof that the marriage was definitely consummated.
 

Deleted member 96349

uh, there already was a tudor-boleyn child on the English throne - Elizabeth I.

But what I actually wanted to say was that the Pope isn't going to grant the dispensation to Henry Duke of York to marry Catalina of Aragon, Dowager Princess of Wales: she's got a child by his brother - living, screaming, kicking, pooping proof that the marriage was definitely consummated.

I'm well aware, and she was such an amazing monarch that I'd want another Tudor-Boleyn on the throne, even in an AU.

I was thinking of Deuteronomy 25:5, but I forgot that it only counted if the widow was sonless, oops. I'd still want Catherine in England though... So I'm counting on Henry being his obsessive self and demanding a dispensation from the Pope, maybe he even twists the bible verse to get his will.
I'm not really sure who else Catherine could marry,I don't see her wanting to leave her son, so it has to be an English noble, but also someone worthy of the daughter of the catholic monarchs.
 
I think even with a child it wasn't unheard of for a royal to marry a sibling's widow/er. The pope simply grants the dispensation on different grounds. Besides, Kate wasted half her youth in England as Arthur's widow because Henry VII didn't want to pay her dowry back. So, she'll probably marry the duke of York sooner rather than later (maybe still in her father-in-law's lifetime).
 
But what I actually wanted to say was that the Pope isn't going to grant the dispensation to Henry Duke of York to marry Catalina of Aragon, Dowager Princess of Wales: she's got a child by his brother - living, screaming, kicking, pooping proof that the marriage was definitely consummated.

I don't think the Pope will be happy to give such a dispensation. It's the 1500s, the dispensations are getting rarer and rarer and the circle of forbidden relatives is more or less established.

If you're set on this union, it might be cause of an alternate Anglican church forming...
 

Deleted member 96349

I don't think the Pope will be happy to give such a dispensation. It's the 1500s, the dispensations are getting rarer and rarer and the circle of forbidden relatives is more or less established.

If you're set on this union, it might be cause of an alternate Anglican church forming...

Catherine would never allow it, and even though Henry is Arthur's regent, I think he would have been influenced by his mother, so no break from Rome yet:/
(I'm thinking that will happen more gradually in this timeline, as the Boleyns would still want to reform the church, but with Anne carefully picking out her children's tutors and other small actions)
 
I do not see the Pope granting the dispensation. There is absolutely NO reason to do so. The Dowager Princess of Wales has a son; she's going to stay in England and help to raise him and God help Henry VII if he tries to stop her (although she may not be officially named a regent). She is not Isabella's daughter for naught. There is no shame in in being a widow helping to raise your son - the next king of England!
 
And Henry won't have romanticized his sil in this TL; she's a mother and has income from the Prince of Wales estates. She is not a figure foreign to him that he's not allowed to see, not a foreign princess alone in England, with no money, dramatically awaiting her prince to save her.
 

Deleted member 96349

1531
  • John of Austria dies
  • Edward, Prince of Wales, is betrothed to Margaret of France.
  • Arthur, Duke of Bedford dies
  • Edmund Howard is granted the title Baron Beaumont
1532
  • Mary of York gives birth to a son, James, Duke of Rothesay
  • King Arthur almost dies of a fever, and makes a will saying Queen Anne would be the regent of their son in case of his death.
1533
  • Queen Anne gives birth to a daughter, Elizabeth of England
  • Isabella of York is betrothed to her cousin Edward of Portugal, 4th Duke of Guimarães
  • Jane Parker gives birth to a son named Arthur Boleyn
  • Renée of France gives birth to twin girls,one of them lived and was named Anne, but the birth left her unable to have any more children
1534
  • Thomas Boleyn, the son of George Boleyn and Jane Parker, dies
  • Mary Boleyn gives birth to a daughter, Margaret Butler
  • Mary of York gives birth to a daughter, Margaret of Scotland
1535
  • Queen Anne gives birth to a daughter, Anne of England
  • Nan Boleyn is sent to be raised with her royal cousins
  • Anne Butler and James Butler are sent to be raised with their royal cousins
  • Eleanor of Austria is married to Francis III of Brittany
1536
  • Queen Anne gives birth to a son, George, Duke of Richmond
  • Isabella of York marries Edward of Portugal
  • Catherine of England marries Philip of Austria
  • Catherine, Duchess of York, the kings mother dies after being ill for a few weeks.
  • Henry, Duke of York, marries Jane Seymour, a woman assumed to have been his mistress
  • Francis III of Brittany dies, his wife is discovered to be pregnant
  • Anne of England dies
1537
  • Henry of York and Katherine Howard marry
  • Eleanor of Austria gives birth to Francis IV of Brittany, the new Dauphin of France
  • Jane Seymour gives birth to Edward of York
  • Elizabeth Boleyn, the Queen's mother, dies
1538
  • Isabella of York gives birth to a son, Manuel of Guimarães
  • Mary of York gives birth to a daughter, Mary of Scotland
  • Piers Butler dies, James Butler and Mary Boleyn are now Earl and Countess of Ossory
  • Catherine of England gives birth to a daughter named Anne of Austria
  • Jane Parker gives birth to a son, Henry Boleyn
1539
  • Jane Seymour gives birth to a daughter, Margery of York
  • King Arthur dies of unknown causes the 1st of August, his 37th birthday, Queen Anne is 6 months pregnant at the time of his death
  • Edward, Prince of Wales, is crowned King of England the 22nd of August at the age of 14. His mother is regent until he's 16
  • Queen Anne gives birth to twins. A son, Arthur, Duke of Lancaster, and a girl, Margaret of England
  • Mary of England is betrothed to Frederick of Denmark, son of Christian III of Denmark and Norway


Henry VII + Elizabeth of York
  • Arthur Tudor (1486-1502) + Catherine of Aragon (1485-1536)
    • King Arthur (1502-1539) + (1) Mary of Austria (1505-1522)+ (2) Anne Boleyn(1507-?)
      • (1)Catherine of England (1522-?) + Philip of Austria (1521-?)
        • Anne of Austria (1538-?)
      • (2) Edward VI of England (1525-?)
      • (2) Mary of England (1527-?)
      • (2) Arthur, Duke of Bedford (1530-1531)
      • (2) Elizabeth of England (1533-?)
      • (2) Anne of England (1535-1536)
      • (2) George, Duke of Richmond (1536-?)
      • (2) Arthur, Duke of Lancaster (1539-?)
      • (2) Margaret of England (1539-?)
  • Margaret Tudor (1489-?) + King James IV of Scotland (1473-1526)
    • James, Duke of Rothesay (1507-1508)
    • Arthur, Duke of Rothesay (1509-1510)
    • James V of Scotland (1512-?) + Mary of York (1516-?)
      • James, Duke of Rothesay (1532-?)
      • Margaret of Scotland (1534-?)
      • Mary of Scotland(1538-?)
    • Alexander, Duke of Ross (1514-1515)
  • Henry, Duke of York (1491-?) +(1) Catherine of Aragon (1485-1536) + (2) Jane Seymour (1508-?)
    • (1)Mary of York (1516-?) + James V of Scotland (1512-?)
      • James, Duke of Rothesay (1532-?)
      • Margaret of Scotland (1534-?)
      • Mary of Scotland(1538-?)
    • (1)Henry of York (1519-?) + Katherine Howard (1524-?)
    • (1)Isabella of York (1521-?) + Edward of Portugal (1515-?)
      • Manuel of Guimarães (1538-?)
    • (2) Edward of York (1537-?)
    • (2) Margery of York (1539-?)
  • Mary Tudor (1496-1527) + Charles V, Holy Roman Emperor (1500-?)
    • Eleanor of Austria (1517-?) + Francis III of Brittany (1518-1536)
      • Francis IV of Brittany (1537-?)
    • Philip of Austria (1521-?)+ Catherine of England (1522-?)
    • Joanna of Austria (1527-1528)
    • Charles of Austria (1527-?)
Thomas Boleyn + Elizabeth Howard
  • Mary Boleyn (1500-?) + James Butler
    • Thomas Butler (1524-?)
    • Anne Butler (1526-?)
    • James Butler (1529-?)
    • Margaret Butler (1534-?)
  • George Boleyn (1504-?) + Jane Parker (1505-?)
    • Anne “Nan” Boleyn (1528-?)
    • Thomas Boleyn (1530-1534)
    • Arthur Boleyn (1533-?)
    • Henry Boleyn (1538-?)
  • Anne Boleyn (1507-?) + King Arthur (1502-1539)
    • Edward VI of England(1525-?)
    • Mary of England (1527-?)
    • Arthur, Duke of Bedford (1530-1531)
    • Elizabeth of England (1533-?)
    • Anne of England (1535-1536)
    • George, Duke of Richmond (1536-?)
    • Arthur, Duke of Lancaster (1539-?)
    • Margaret of England (1539-?)
 
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Deleted member 96349

And Henry won't have romanticized his sil in this TL; she's a mother and has income from the Prince of Wales estates. She is not a figure foreign to him that he's not allowed to see, not a foreign princess alone in England, with no money, dramatically awaiting her prince to save her.
I agree with you now that I've thought more about it, but at this point I'm not going to change it.
Catherine is still an incredibly beautiful woman though, and I can see Henry wanting to possess her even though she his brother's widow and mother to his nephew.
 
ah, change it, it's not real history, set in stone :p

Catalina will not want to complicate her son's inheritance by marrying his father's brother. She's got enough common sense for that. She need only look as far back as Richard III to see can happen when brothers get ambitious. Her relations with Henry will be cordial - but sisterly.
 
ah, change it, it's not real history, set in stone :p

Catalina will not want to complicate her son's inheritance by marrying his father's brother. She's got enough common sense for that. She need only look as far back as Richard III to see can happen when brothers get ambitious. Her relations with Henry will be cordial - but sisterly.
Marrying Henry will help to keep Arthur safe, not put him in danger. Henry at this point will surely marry because the Tudor's dynasty will need more heirs and Catalina is smart enough to understand who is better she marry Henry and keep him loyal than have him marry another woman and became resentful or dangerous for her son...
 
I'm not convinced (not that it matters) that she'd marry him. Henry VII is still a player in the marriages until he dies: he will want Henry DoY to wed a foreign princess from perhaps France to better ally his fledgling empire. You can't just focus on "what she wants/what he wants" - these are going to be political alliances, Henry and Catalina aren't going to be allowed to wed to gratify their own desires.
 
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