AHC: Brazilian Colonies

[The_Last_Plantagenet]

Your challenge, if you should choose to take it, are to get Brazil to take part in the Great Game and end up with a colony. Points will be awarded depending on success. Bonus points will be awarded for the following:

• Brazilian Angola
• Continued Brazilian Empire
• The Brazilian Branch becomes the Head of the House of Braganza
• Superpower Brazil

 

[Phalamus]

Does a Brazillian centered United Kingdom of Portugal, Brazil, and Algarves count, or do we have to sepparate Brazil from Portugal while somehow making it take its Afracan colonies?

 

[Phalamus]

Keeping the United Kingdom would probably be the best way of doing this, but it may not be what you're asking for. What about a Napoleonic victory scenario? If Napoleon takes Portugal and divides in three as he intended to, then the royal family will have to stay in Brazil and would exercise power over the other colonies from there. With time, they could just give up on Portugal and start seeing themselves solely as monarchs of Brazil. That should make for a true Brazillian Empire

 

[unprincipled peter]

What Joao97 said. If Napoleon doesn't get greedy and attempt to take Spain along with Portugal, Portugal is done as a country. Britain had no intent on rescuing Portuguese soil, until Nap tried to do too much at once and ended up with none of it. this gave Britain a beach head to send troops (Wellington, anyone?). From there, if you can get Nap to hold on for another decade, Brazil is now home to the Braganza empire.

Alternatively, if King Joao remains in Brazil, sending Pedro back to Portugal, you set the scene for a splitting of the empire, with Brazil gaining independence holding onto Angola, which was a de facto colony of Brazil prior to OTL Brazilian independence. Maybe without the impetuous Pedro at the helm, Brazil has a chance at prosperity in the early years. Since we get to write the narrative, let's bump off Carlota and remarry Joao to some young thing who provides him with lots of competent heirs. with a combination of early stability/prosperity and a few generations of quality leadership, Brazil is poised to be top dog in South America and expand their African holdings.

 

[Phalamus]

Alternatively, if King Joao remains in Brazil, sending Pedro back to Portugal, you set the scene for a splitting of the empire, with Brazil gaining independence holding onto Angola, which was a de facto colony of Brazil prior to OTL Brazilian independence.

Hum...I don't know if that would work. It seems to me that you're thinking of a scenario in which Pedro is made King of Portugal while his father is still alive and ruling Brazil. There are a few problems with this:

• João was popular in Portugal and his reluctant support for the new liberal regime was part of what kept an absolutist throwback from happening during his reign. I don't think the Cortes would be willing to bypass him without a very good reason.
• Once in Portugal Pedro would probably work for the unity of the kingdom and I don't see him complying with a return of Brazil to its colonial status (he was the guy who declared independence in OTL, after all). He was also way more decisive than his father and could relate better with the Cortes because he was liberal. If he had been the one to go back, I think the Empire wouldn't split.
• I don't see any particular reason why Angola would go to Brazil instead of Portugal in this scenario. Of course that the Angolan could begin to see Brazil as "the real Portugal" as it was ruled by the rightful king, but I think they're just as likely to side with Portugal.

To be frank, at this point of history, I don't see any way of splitting the Empire if João remained in Brazil...

 

[unprincipled peter]

If Pedro went back to Portugual, chances are very good that the Cortes decides he's the king. I don't think Joao is all that popular. He did run out on his country, after all. He's not unpopular. I think that any member of the Braganza family is good enough to be king. If Joao decides he still wants to be king of Brazil, he'd probably have enough support to make a stand. IF (a very big if), he can keep at least part of the Navy on his side, or at least get them to leave, there's not a darn thing Portugal can do to keep Brazil in the fold. He'd have a much easier time than Pedro getting international recognition, since he is the legitimate king, not a usurper as Pedro is in either country.

Pedro was liberal, but he was also an autocrat and expected his will to be the way. It was why he ultimately failed in Brazil, because he was only interested in getting along so long as everyone else saw things his way. I doubt he gets along with anyone for very long. Don't forget, the independence of Brazil in this TTL happens AFTER he returns to Portugal. Being crowned king means he has to promise the Cortes he'll work to return Brazil back to a subservient role. That's a pipe dream in 1821. Brazil is not going to be subjugated again. Portugal is not going to accept anything less, regardless of what Pedro wants. Besides a dual monarchy on either side of the pond is going to be well beyond the capacity of either side to manage.

There was real concern, OTL, that Angola would go with Brazil. the two were major trading partners: rum from Brazil for slaves from Angola.

 

[Phalamus]

If Pedro went back to Portugal, chances are very good that the Cortes decides he's the king. I don't think Joao is all that popular. He did run out on his country, after all. He's not unpopular. I think that any member of the Braganza family is good enough to be king.

Well, I don't know about that. When I went to school here in Portugal they taught me that everyone was like "King, king, king, let's get the king back! The King is great!" at the time of the revolution, but maybe I'm mistaken...

Anyway, even if he was not that popular, he still gave legitimacy to the Cortes. By replacing him with an usurper, even if that usurper is a Braganza, they would be increasing the chances of an absolutist counter-revolution, and they would obviously not want that.

If Pedro just stays in Portugal as prince regent, supporting the Cortes in the name of the king, they'll probably be satisfied just with that. If the liberals are any smart (though I admit they are not much...) they'll see securing the new regime as more important than fulfilling their greedy ambition of getting Brazil's ports closed again. But well, you never know how stupid people can be...

Pedro was liberal, but he was also an autocrat and expected his will to be the way. It was why he ultimately failed in Brazil, because he was only interested in getting along so long as everyone else saw things his way. I doubt he gets along with anyone for very long.

I don't really get why so many people say that he failed so bad in Brazil, that country was a paradise of peace and stability when compared to the rest of Latin America at that time. I mean, Pedro may have been a somewhat inefficent ruler when it came to social and economic issues, but he kept the country united and got it to be internationally recognized. He was not that bad.

But well, I guess one could argue that he was probably not the best person to negotiate with the Cortes.

Being crowned king means he has to promise the Cortes he'll work to return Brazil back to a subservient role.

Yeah, but would he agree to become king on those conditions? As far as I know, he was very supportive of the Brazillian merchant class.

There was real concern, OTL, that Angola would go with Brazil. the two were major trading partners: rum from Brazil for slaves from Angola.

Well, I didn't know about that. Thanks for the information, it's always good to learn .

 

[The_Last_Plantagenet]

Wow, thanks everyone for so much information. So we've found its possible for Brazil to take the Portuguese Empire, what is likely to happen next? Colonial Expansion? Wars? Other fun and Games?

 

[Gloss]

Wow, thanks everyone for so much information. So we've found its possible for Brazil to take the Portuguese Empire, what is likely to happen next? Colonial Expansion? Wars? Other fun and Games?

Well have them crush Argentina completely early and you could have Uruguay, Entre Rios and maybe even Paraguay under Brazil. At that point I´m not sure if they completely inglobate Argentina.