Most of this territory was not under actual Spanish control, they were sometimes visited by expeditions, but there weren't many Spanish permanent settlements in these regions. Even though many Spaniards visited the Washington state region, none of them remained there and made the region Hispanophone. More accurately Spain controlled North America up to the Texas/California region, where they had Catholic missions and many settlementsI look at it as how to not nerf Hispanic North America. Look at the attached map. It's from Wikipedia.
At the time of the American Revolution, they had most of North America, up to and including a lot of Canada.
History of Mexico - Wikipedia
en.wikipedia.org
AHC: Bigger Hispanic America
- Thread starter Taunay
- Start date
I look at it as how to not nerf Hispanic North America. Look at the attached map. It's from Wikipedia.
At the time of the American Revolution, they had most of North America, up to and including a lot of Canada.
History of Mexico - Wikipedia
That is true, they didn't control it. However, under treaty they had the right to control it and could expand into it. Jefferson didn't spend fifteen million dollars for nothing. They would have had to fight the equivalent of the Indian Wars to control the rest of it, but that military victory seems quite possible.
Agreed, but first we would need to have the Spanish actually be interested in that region. IOTL, they also had the right to more than half of Brazil, yet they never really made any serious attempts to enforce this claim and let the Bandeirantes expand the Portuguese colony
Something that some people mentioned really hampered colonization was the commerce and economic system of the colonies. However, as Mitridades pointed out, changing that system was not feasible and would actually do more harm than good.
As an addendum, the fact that Spain had a claim for the majority of the continent yet they did not make any efforts to stop Brazilian expansion and to colonize the PNW and Alaska does say a lot about whether OTL was already the best-case scenario for Spanish colonization. (I mean, conquering two massive empires, both of whom were just unlucky enough to be engulfed in civil wars and political crises does seem to be a wank)
As an addendum, the fact that Spain had a claim for the majority of the continent yet they did not make any efforts to stop Brazilian expansion and to colonize the PNW and Alaska does say a lot about whether OTL was already the best-case scenario for Spanish colonization. (I mean, conquering two massive empires, both of whom were just unlucky enough to be engulfed in civil wars and political crises does seem to be a wank)
The underlying problem is essentially that America is so ridiculously huge that we would probably need Spain to be more like Germany or China (in demography) than Spain in order to successfully colonize the entire continent.
In theory, it could have expanded more, and they certainly had the advantage of being able to assimilate the indigenous instead of just exterminating them (which gives more people you can recruit and use to colonize, hell, most of Brazil's colonizers were mestizo of Portuguese and indigenous).
The policy of opening up to immigration and resorting to colonizing with immigrants requires that immigrants assimilate into Spanish society, which is by no means a guarantee. Hell, at OTL we have at least the examples of Texas and California to prove that there is a risk of immigrants taking over a specific region and starting a separatist rebellion. Especially if there is a colony next door, or a nation, that is only too happy to absorb these Separatists into itself.
In theory, it could have expanded more, and they certainly had the advantage of being able to assimilate the indigenous instead of just exterminating them (which gives more people you can recruit and use to colonize, hell, most of Brazil's colonizers were mestizo of Portuguese and indigenous).
The policy of opening up to immigration and resorting to colonizing with immigrants requires that immigrants assimilate into Spanish society, which is by no means a guarantee. Hell, at OTL we have at least the examples of Texas and California to prove that there is a risk of immigrants taking over a specific region and starting a separatist rebellion. Especially if there is a colony next door, or a nation, that is only too happy to absorb these Separatists into itself.
Agreed
True!
Acre in Brazil is also an example.
It was a Bolivian territory who was mostly Hispanic. In the late 19th century, however, it had a massive number of Brazilian emigrants who moved to work in the rubber industry. Those emigrants developed a nationalist feeling and tried to get Bolivia to join Brazil. Brazil initially did NOT want Acre to be annexed, however. And those separatists were actually defeated in their first uprising against Bolivia, yet this proved to be useless, as they once again rebelled and asked to be annexed into Brazil. A Brazilian diplomat bought Acre as Bolivia came to the conclusion that trying to keep the territory would not be worth all the hassles and rebellions.
So even in a case where the government did not want to annex a Hispanic country's lands, they were still annexed
But here's a way that could help: Have the Iberian Union survive. The extra manpower would help in speed running colonization. They could still survive if Portugal retained its autonomy and did not feel like Spain was trying to "absorb" it .
But it's a double-edged sword, Brazil expanded the most during the Iberian Union
So it's a trade-off. Hispanic South America would be slightly smaller while Hispanic North America could be bigger
Assuming the Iberian Union persists, might the term "Spain" eventually be extended to include Portugal, and thus Brazil be considered "whatever Hispanic is called ITTL"?
I feel like this would only count for the challenge if The Haspsburg or following dynasties still performs bourbon-style reforms while having Portugal, and that Brazil still ends up speaking Spanish or one of it dialect
Significant Castillan immigration during the Brazilian gold rush, along with centralisation reforms and *actual* Investment in (Spanish speaking) education in Brazil can probably put the base for it being Hispanophone when mass literacy comes
the harder part of the challenge, without going back to the 16th century that is, is making the 13 colonies and eastern Canada hispanophone
Ah, but people will come when there's gold in them there hills. They will come when you say it in Spanish or English. There was gold in Montana and in California and in the Yukon. People would follow the discovery of sudden chances for wealth. Free land is another tremendous draw. The Oklahoma Land Rush of 1889 would be a tremendous draw for people, no matter what language it is advertised in. Many would initially come from Europe and would speak other languages, but just as they all learned English and have allegiance to the USA in this timeline they would all learn Spanish and have allegiance to Mexico in the alternate timeline. After all, they were really people whose allegiance is to land and a better life for their children.
When someone call to @Mitridates the Great and me.
The problem with that is mostly the population rate. Natives like Comanches or Navajos normally had a "stable" relationship with the Viceroyalties. Spain had a unit similar to the US Cavalry called the Dragones de Cuera. This mission was to deal with the Native American incursions but never attack because they knew that the natives would defend themselves, the idea was to use missionaries to gain friendship and then go to the next level.
In the south, you talk about the Mapuches of Chile or Argentina. In both cases, the situation is more tense because the Mapuches had a warrior culture that did not advance as the Inca could be, the Mapuches waged a war that lasted centuries (1500s to early 1900s).
The Conde duque de Olivares try that. The Union of Armas... and... well. That make a fucking chaos even Catalonia was rebeled, the national anthem of Catalonia have his origin there.
Basils
Banned
Wonder if Spain or rather Castile was more open about who settled? They only had 250k colonists go to the new world by 1600. If they opened up their other European holdings they could have more than doubled the amount who went and that would have made their Serling colonies larger and possibly more safe from British and other invasions
That's plausible
Even at its peak Castilian emigration never surpassed Portuguese emigration
Also there were many gold rushes in the Spanish Empire without mass emigration coming after
Plus Portugal would never allow Brazil to turn Hispanophone and doing that could end the Iberian Union
Unnaturalmilk,
Please correct me but I understood this as a bigger Hispanic language/culture footprint in the Americas, not as a bigger European Spanish footprint. I thought what people do in South America with their existing strength and in their countries is independent of what people a couple of thousand miles/kilometers north in what was Northern Mexico do. As such, I don't know why what happened in Brazil is directly related to expansion in the far North of Mexico. While I grant that my knowledge of South American history is very poor, I don't see why a stronger presence in North America couldn't create reasons and decisions that would make it less likely for the Portuguese to gain control of all of Brazil. If there are such reasons, please inform me.
Respectfully yours,
The Laughing Hyenas
Yeah, you can make some regions become Hispanophone, but Brazil was too big and Portugal would not enjoy seeing its colony speak Spanish
The problem is that having the Spanish Empire overstretch itself in both regions would be difficult and undesirable. Outside of gold mines of Minas, there weren't many valuable resources that would justify Spain weakening Portuguese control over Brazil
As I said, the reverse happened. During the times where Portugal was united with Spain, Portuguese control deepened and expansion was accelerated even further
1) England adopted mercantilism later than Spain (during the reign of Elizabeth), embraced it less thoroughly, and abandoned it earlier
2) What?
The POD is both before the Iberian Union and the Anglo-Scottish Union. Having the former survive and the latter dissolve would definitely help, especially if it resulted in the English, Scottish, Welsh and Irish weakening each other through infighting. With the British out of the picture, Iberia has pretty much a free hand - minus France.
The POD is also before the English bought Manhattan, before the Spanish Armada failed, before the British "ruled the waves," etc. Essentially, if the United Kingdom can be prevented from forming and the British Isles turns into a war zone with each nation having to invest in their armies instead of one unified navy, United Iberia (which controls the Low Countries as well) could dominate the Atlantic and who would be able to dislodge them? Only the French.
In terms of language, 470 years is a long time for Portuguese and Spanish to merge, develop a "Castellano Real" used by royalty and the upper classes, or eventually become considered more or less the same as English and American are seen nowadays. Remember that Spaniards don't call their language Spanish, they literally call it Castellano (the language of Castille) and the Spanish they speak in the New World is Latin. There are already 'two' Spanish languages IOTL, so I don't see what it would be ASB for Portuguese not to be considered a third Spanish language.
Regards,
Northstar
The POD is also before the English bought Manhattan, before the Spanish Armada failed, before the British "ruled the waves," etc. Essentially, if the United Kingdom can be prevented from forming and the British Isles turns into a war zone with each nation having to invest in their armies instead of one unified navy, United Iberia (which controls the Low Countries as well) could dominate the Atlantic and who would be able to dislodge them? Only the French.
In terms of language, 470 years is a long time for Portuguese and Spanish to merge, develop a "Castellano Real" used by royalty and the upper classes, or eventually become considered more or less the same as English and American are seen nowadays. Remember that Spaniards don't call their language Spanish, they literally call it Castellano (the language of Castille) and the Spanish they speak in the New World is Latin. There are already 'two' Spanish languages IOTL, so I don't see what it would be ASB for Portuguese not to be considered a third Spanish language.
Regards,
Northstar
Thanks, but could you elaborate on Portuguese being the "third Spanish language"?
Does Portuguese as it is IOTL cease to exist or is it simply considered more of a very weird Spanish