AHC: Australia-wank

Nothing wrong with the outback. Its where all the minerals are. :rolleyes:

If you're interested in terraforming then why not flood the outback? Have a look at the water course (dry) which runs from Port Augusta in South Australia to Lake Torrents and the to Lake Eyre which is IIR below sea level at its deepest. There is IIRC about 100 miles which would need to subside to let the waters from the Spencer Gulf to flow inland to Lake Torrens then to Lake Eyre. A nice inland sea would do a great deal towards improving rainfall on the western side of the Great Dividing Range and water flow in the Murray-Darling and Cooper basins.

I have looked into that one. As recalled, the elevations are
not in tune. Lake Torrens itself is about 100 feet above sealevel, and there is a hill of another 100 between Lake Eyre and that.

Level the hill and still we have hundreds of miles of at least 80 feet of head loss. That is a lot of electricity to continually pump for an erratic water potential scattered all over the outback and much of it in vapor that falls elsewhere outside the basin and/or Australia altogether.

I am not saying that it would not work, or will not because if the math is right (butterflies in the international climes) it will quite possibly be done. The one through Tunisia to Algeria is similar size and clime, far cheaper and only a ten foot height max, but the locals think it as the will of god.

Both projects might be better with algae manufacture (it gets shocked into producing oil and naturally clumps up in gravity drift through evaporation?), providing an initial incentive, but the following is really too small in expanse for much of that.

There is a small hill of 80 feet, I recall, and before that a head of about 40 or so for one in Israel, but it would cross the fertile plains of Armagedeon (no joke) with seawater and an easy target, to replenish the Dead Sea.

The Quattara Depression in Egypt has a 450 foot or so head but a 200 foot drop and flat surface for maximum evaporation. I doubt it has much a chance, and it is too close to the Mediterranean with wind currents of rain out payback.

Getting back to Australia, my guess is icebergs from Antarctica are a better sell, but this is only a guess and one that is filled with delivery problems as yet unsolved by those who officially have looked at the situation. Desalination involves a lot more energy than people think, as water has to be incredibly cheap to be efficient as a producer on today's marketplace. The nice thing about gravity drains is that they are permanent with very little maintainence needed, like a well build dam.

Icebergs, if ever the bugs are worked out, are immediate, but still one must pump the water inland. About 1/10th of Australia might be assisted in this way, like the now dry Murray river area, the Nullarbor plain, even the far Eyre
basin as it is pure water and can be used immediately and locally (rainfall is notoriously erratic and in irrigation areas even viewed as a pain do to this).

Finally, be advised that the Gibson et al desert areas of the outback are depressions of the climate, meaning of course that air sinks into them. That is why there are few clouds and fewwer rain producing fronts.

Hard to squeeze out even the water evaporating in _an Ocean_ which is much larger than any new Lake Eyre. Ocean areas in the North/South of Equator lattitude zone depression belts get erratic storms and typically have about 18 inches of rain at sea/small islands, not enough for great agriculture. The smaller hypothetical Lake Eyre would deliver much less an increase of a few inches naturally there at present. Maybe on the periphery boundary areas near the Great Divide or due to irrigation of still erratic watercourses?
 
The East Timorese got no vote on the matter in OTL.

And look how they reacted. Do you think Australia needs an ongoing insurgency for 20+ years that it has to keep fighting? I don't. I'd rather them stand up to Indonesia. Suharto wouldn't press the matter if the Australians could guarantee that Fretelin didn't create a hard-line Marxist regime in East Timor in 1975.
 
I am well aware that it was wrong and can probably find multiple posts from me to the effect. The thing was how to get Australia as powerful as possibe without losing it's inner charater. Something that people say is being lost even today. I say that if Australia could get itself the protector status that similar to what the Americans have over many island nations, as well as perhaps supporting the continued independence of many areas of the East Indies, they could do well enough for themselves. I also have remembered something else. Apparently a British spy dressed up as a priest and gave a sob story to an Australian at the conference where many countries were bidding at for the PErsian petroleum contract. Have that be seen through. Also have the Chinese not buy up Austrlias rare earth metals.
 
I am well aware that it was wrong and can probably find multiple posts from me to the effect. The thing was how to get Australia as powerful as possibe without losing it's inner charater. Something that people say is being lost even today.

I would suggest that is impossible. The Australian "character" is a creation of its history. You alter the history, the character will automatically change. You make Australia more powerful, its character will be different. It is a given.

I say that if Australia could get itself the protector status that similar to what the Americans have over many island nations, as well as perhaps supporting the continued independence of many areas of the East Indies, they could do well enough for themselves. I also have remembered something else. Apparently a British spy dressed up as a priest and gave a sob story to an Australian at the conference where many countries were bidding at for the PErsian petroleum contract. Have that be seen through. Also have the Chinese not buy up Austrlias rare earth metals.

So, you think Australia could become an Imperial state and it's character could remain the same?
 
I would suggest that is impossible. The Australian "character" is a creation of its history. You alter the history, the character will automatically change. You make Australia more powerful, its character will be different. It is a given.



So, you think Australia could become an Imperial state and it's character could remain the same?

Not at all. The Islands under American protection are there willingly. Some are American because they voted not to leave, some are American because they voted to stay, and some are in economic union but not technically American. It is about safety, money, and people wanting them to be there.
 
I just remembered this old story by Syphon that dealt with a stronger Australia, and thought some of you might enjoy it. (If you hadn't already read it)

Aurora Australis
by Syphon

Aurora Australis - part one

POD: In the aftermath of the First World War the Australian people having lost so many of their sons, husbands and brothers in foreign wars and through them the Australian political parties decide to take a more self-reliant approach to defence and foreign affairs.
Instead of relying on mother England for protection the future Australian governments set in place a policy of building Australia’s armed forces to a level in which Australia would in the decades to come become a power in South East Asia.
 

celt

Banned
You don't think the Portuguese who own it might have something to say about it? Considering they were the oldest allied nation to the UK, I rather think the UK might veto the idea, don't you?

Didn't know the UK could veto anything Australia did post 45!
 
They could always flood Lake Eair (sp?) apparently that would lead to more rain west of the dividing range, that would lead to a greener Aus.
 
Not at all. The Islands under American protection are there willingly. Some are American because they voted not to leave, some are American because they voted to stay, and some are in economic union but not technically American. It is about safety, money, and people wanting them to be there.

Thats a fairly naive view, I suspect. Most of the Islands were annexed without their inhabitant's permission or won as war booty. Considering how the US acted on Palau during the 1980s when they attempted to bring in an anti-Nuclear constitution, one wonders exactly how free and fair your votes have been.
 
Nothing wrong with the outback. Its where all the minerals are. :rolleyes:

If you're interested in terraforming then why not flood the outback? Have a look at the water course (dry) which runs from Port Augusta in South Australia to Lake Torrents and the to Lake Eyre which is IIR below sea level at its deepest. There is IIRC about 100 miles which would need to subside to let the waters from the Spencer Gulf to flow inland to Lake Torrens then to Lake Eyre. A nice inland sea would do a great deal towards improving rainfall on the western side of the Great Dividing Range and water flow in the Murray-Darling and Cooper basins.

At the very least, I would like to see it be a bit more settler friendly - Maybe new mexico-arizone level.
 
What would it take to have Australia include New Zealand, Melanesia (New Guinea and the New Herbrides/Vanuatu) and a share of Polynesia?
 
What would it take to have Australia include New Zealand, Melanesia (New Guinea and the New Herbrides/Vanuatu) and a share of Polynesia?

A lot of convincing of New Zealand. New Zealand and Fiji are actually named as possible states in the preamble to the Australian Constitution. Both declined to attend the Constitutional Convention(s) in the 1890s. Neither wished to become subsumed in Australia.
 
At the very least, I would like to see it be a bit more settler friendly - Maybe new mexico-arizone level.

Without substantial changes to the eco-system and climate, its not going to happen. Australia's drift northwards has placed it in the wrong position for gaining rainfall from the oceans in the interior. Most of the interior is actually like Mexico-Arizona. It just needs more rainfall to make it more inhabitable or a substantial source of water flowing into the interior from the exterior, periphery of the continent. Perhaps a series of mountain ranges in the SW corner, with the rivers that eventuate flowing inland?
 
No I ment when Portugal gave up on her colonies,sorry.

No apology necessary. What you could have happen is Australia claims East Timor after WWII on the basis of its (illegal) invasion of the neutral territory in 1942, which in turn provoked the Japanese invasion. If Sparrow Force had managed to remain in place and the East Timorese asked the Australians to take over from the Portuguese and "Doc" Evatt's plans for an "arc of bases" across the islands to the North had occurred, it might be possible.
 

Cook

Banned
They could always flood Lake Eair (sp?) apparently that would lead to more rain west of the dividing range, that would lead to a greener Aus.


Lake Eyre floods naturally on a regular basis. If you have the capacity to pump enough water uphill to flood Eyre you have the capacity to pump the water directly to the areas you want irrigated, making for a much more reliable water supply than some highly questionable down wind precipitation off the lake.

A nation already exporting 1.7 million tonnes of rice annually (never mind the wheat) probably has better things to do with its time than more big irrigation projects.

For those having difficulties appreciating the size of the land you are talking about, the Murray-Darling catchment area is a bit over 1 million square kilometres, by comparison France is 670,000 square kilometres and the south-west corner of Western Australia is larger than Great Britain and despite what Dick Smith and other people with equally silly ideas like to say on the matter Australia is nowhere near the limit of its ‘carrying capacity’. Additional schemes to divert water to irrigate nutrient deficient land are unnecessary.
 
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Riain

Banned
The inland sea schemes have been debunked by the CSIRO, apparently it won't deliver the benefits the amateurs who propose this shit say it will. Considering the salinity problems we already have I automatically am against major water projects.
 
The inland sea schemes have been debunked by the CSIRO, apparently it won't deliver the benefits the amateurs who propose this shit say it will. Considering the salinity problems we already have I automatically am against major water projects.


Quayle’s theories were derived from those that had underpinned the nineteenth century proposals to flood the Sahara and Lake Eyre, which I have already discussed. Such ideas were also put forward in relation to the plan to lock and weir the Barwon and Darling Rivers in the 1890s, when they were debunked by the esteemed NSW Government Astronomer, Henry Chamberlaine Russell, who observed that — as the upper atmosphere shifts at the rate of hundreds of miles a day — any water evaporating from inland lakes and pools is over the Pacific Ocean by the time it might develop into rainfall. Quayle’s theories, as they were re-presented by Bradfield, were comprehensively dismissed by other prominent meteorologists in the 1940s. A recent study looking specifically at Lake Eyre has suggested that its permanent filling may slightly raise the average level of precipitation directly above the lake itself, but would have little or no effect on rainfall levels across the surrounding region

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Exactly, Riain. It would deliver rain 500 miles off of New Zealand before
precipitating. The only reason why the Bradford Project would be done
in the Eyre would be for Algae oil, if it ever worked well enough. Circular
levees towards the middle, eventually evaporating, might give a stream
of oil under genetically modified stains, the gravity flow making it worth
then pumping to civilization and transportation/plastics use in the distant
future.
 
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