AHC: Aug. 17, 1943 Allied raid on Nazi Peenemunde V-1 and V-2 research base also included naval artillery.

GeographyDude

Gone Fishin'
This raid was called Operation Hydra.

And in spite of the heroism of George Dunn and his comrades in the Royal Air Force, this raid on Aug. 17, 1943 (plus, early morning hours of Aug. 18th) was only partially successful. And, the Nazis then moved V-1 and V-2 rocket research and production.

So, in a sense, you only get one chance for a really highly effective raid.

The dilemma is, that as you put off the raid planning for a bigger raid, you may end up putting it off too long.

1280px-Baltic_Sea_map_Usedom_location.png

Pernemunde was located on the island of Usedom.

Your challenge — Design a bigger raid without waiting too long.
 
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James Ricker

Navel artillery would be a no-go
Usedom is in the confined Waters of Baltic and any warship put of had to pass through several choke points to get there.
The only chance for naval bombardment would have been from an older Russian ship based out of Leningrad and it would be a one-way mission
If the Soviets had been willing to give a naval penal battalion to the mission it might have been achieved
But the chances of the ship making it there would be slim and the chances of making home would be virtually non-existent.
 

GeographyDude

Gone Fishin'
James Ricker said:
Navel artillery would be a no-go
Usedom is in the confined Waters of Baltic and any warship put of had to pass through several choke points to get there. . .
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Yes, the Danish straits, and I’m going pull a picture just how much of a choke point.

Look, by mid-‘43 we were already winning the war. The primary risk was that we would be too cautious and win it more slowly than we could, and an outside chance of a Nazi super weapon might come through. The V-1 rocket attacks on London and other UK cities the Summer of 1944 would turn out to be already a big enough deal.

So, a naval engagement would have to be a two-fer. There’d have to be a Nazi target around Copenhagen that we want to hit and/or we want to draw Nazi ships into a battle in which we have the advantage. And then bombarding Peenemunde is a very nice bonus.

Now, the Soviets have the same reason to knock out a German secret weapon facility as the Brits and the Americans, if anything maybe a little bit more. Can you paint me maybe a 30% chance that Soviet high command sends a mission which succeeds and comes back?
 
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Vanguard45

Vanguard45

It would be a massacre for the Allies, the Germans would be in their waters with minisubs and U-boats plus Luftwaffe support plus minefields.


No allied commander will allow it
 

GeographyDude

Gone Fishin'
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LATER EDIT: The following battle took place in a different part of the world.

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F38F66F4-2E02-46F1-A2C5-941E237048A3.jpeg


LATER EDIT: The Denmark Strait is between Greenland and Iceland.

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Yes, the Nazis might win, like the above battle.

But certainly, there are ways for the Allies to win. And there are ways to defeat water mine fields, and it may turn out that the Nazis are over-depending on these, leaving themselves relatively exposed.
 
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Look More Closely Later

GeographyDude said:
chart2.png

91qF9R5JWJL.jpg


Yes, the Nazis might win, like the above battle.

But certainly, there are ways for the Allies to win. And there are ways to defeat water mine fields, and it may turn out that the Nazis are over-depending on these, leaving themselves relatively exposed.
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In the real world the 'Denmark Strait' is between Greenland and Iceland.
As your own map shows, the straits between Denmark & Sweden/through Demark are the ' Øresund' and (to anglicise) the 'Great Belt' and the 'Little Belt'.
The Denmark Strait is a lot wider than those straits in Denmark, with a lot more space for ships to try stuff in (including, in the Bismarck's case, to get through.)
 
Vanguard45

Vanguard45

No one in the naval section of Allied command is going to approve this, maybe a carrier raid at most, but that means exposing a valuable carrier or three to the dangers mentioned (Which includes forces from Norway)


Could fitting shells (Like the Japanese did at Pearl) work on dive bombers?
 

The Tai-Pan

GeographyDude said:
But certainly, there are ways for the Allies to win. And there are ways to defeat water mine fields, and it may turn out that the Nazis are over-depending on these, leaving themselves relatively exposed.
Click to expand...

So...you want to send a naval force into exceptionally narrow waters, surrounded on nearly all sides by hostile shores, much of it lined with batteries? This foe has nearly total air superiority over this area, with plenty of experienced pilots while you will have virtually no air cover of your own. The ocean area is also littered with mines and other obstacles. Worse, they will have U-boats and E-Boats all over the place.

And this of course overlooks the really crazy part. You have to go back and the only way out is through the Oresund. You'd lose nearly every ship.

One does not simply steam into the Baltic Sea.
 

GeographyDude

Gone Fishin'
The Tai-Pan said:
So...you want to send a naval force into exceptionally narrow waters, surrounded on nearly all sides by hostile shores, much of it lined with batteries? . . . . . And this of course overlooks the really crazy part. You have to go back and the only way out is through the Oresund. You'd lose nearly every ship.

One does not simply steam into the Baltic Sea.
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Yes, it is quite a challenge, no question! :p

But then, the status quo ain’t great. The Nazi bombardment of London with V-1’s was bad enough, just as it was. And it was certainly within the spectrum of possibilities that it could have been quite a bit worse.

Our job is to prevent this.
 
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The Tai-Pan

GeographyDude said:
Yes, it quite a challenge, no question! :p

But then, the status quo ain’t great. The Nazi bombardment of London with V-1’s was bad enough, just as it was. And it’s certainly within the spectrum of possibilities that it could have been quite a bit worse.

Our job is to prevent this.
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All the V weapons put together probably did less harm then losing a major naval task force.
 

Look More Closely Later

The Tai-Pan said:
All the V weapons put together probably did less harm then losing a major naval task force.
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The original timeline British didn't know in 1943 how much damage a V-2 could do - see volume V ('Closing the Ring', chapter: Hitler's "Secret Weapon") of Churchill's WW2 memoirs. Estimates of possible damage from a V-2 onslaught ranged from almost insignificant to London being wiped off the map, depending on which scientist was using which set of figures.
 

GeographyDude

Gone Fishin'
Vanguard45 said:
Replace it with a carrier raid where the bombers have 16inch shells Pearl Harbor style and they might approve it
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Big shells might be extremely helpful if we have info on underground facilities. But already . . .
www.bbc.com

The German village that changed the war

The research and development carried out in Peenemünde was not only crucial to the course of WWII, but impacted the future of weapons of mass destruction, as well as space travel.
www.bbc.com www.bbc.com
“ . . . On the night of 17 August, the Royal Airforce carried out Operation Hydra, the largest British action against a single target during WWII. Although the bombing was largely unsuccessful, it did delay production and force it to move underground to Mittelwerk in central Germany. . . ”
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In OTL, Operation Hydra was already huge.
 

Post

GeographyDude said:
Big shells might be extremely helpful if we have info on underground facilities. But already . . .
www.bbc.com

The German village that changed the war

The research and development carried out in Peenemünde was not only crucial to the course of WWII, but impacted the future of weapons of mass destruction, as well as space travel.
www.bbc.com www.bbc.com

In OTL, Operation Hydra was already huge.
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I don't get the title of that BBC article. How did Peenemünde change WW2?
 

GeographyDude

Gone Fishin'
www.defensemedianetwork.com

Operations Crossbow and Hydra: The Aerial Attacks Against Peenemünde | Defense Media Network

A history of Operation Crossbow and Operation Hydra, the British bombing of the German rocket research center on Peenemünde.
www.defensemedianetwork.com www.defensemedianetwork.com
“ . . . In The Rocket Team, authors Frederick I. Ordway III and Mitchell Sharpe wrote, “Perhaps the greatest failure of the raid was that it did not achieve one of its major objectives: killing or incapacitating as many of the scientific and technical personnel as possible.” Only two important people were killed. Hydra also caused the Germans to disperse production. V-weapon tools and machinery were transferred to a subterranean plant in central Germany. Though still important, by September Peenemünde was no longer the sole center of Germany’s rocket program. . . ”
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You basically get one chance to really do it right.

Or, you can go on successive nights. But as Flight Lt. George Dunn says in the video at the top of this page, expect quite a welcoming committee if you go on nights two, three, or four. As it was, the Operation Hydra raid on Peenemunde was three waves of planes on a single night.
 
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GeographyDude

Gone Fishin'
The Tai-Pan said:
All the V weapons put together probably did less harm then losing a major naval task force.
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I don’t want to pay either cost!

To use a sports metaphor, what we did was to let the Nazis back into the game. Yes, we won. But it was closer than it should have been.

Maybe the Brits and the Soviets have a joint mission? The Brits will bomb by plane first, since that has the greatest element of surprise. And the Soviets will follow up with naval bombardment the likes of which will not soon be forgotten.

And everyone please remember, until they turned the tide in the Battle of Stalingrad, the Soviets had a close call. I suspect they’re at least as gung-ho as the Brits and Americans about driving a victory home.
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