AHC: An actual Wild Wild West

pattontank12

pattontank12

Aghasverov said:
Hippos make terrible livestock... more people in Africa are killed every year by hippos than by crocodiles :biggrin:

The elephant thing is intriguing, although the phrase "large slow target" does come to mind.... I could see some uses though, elephants are highly intelligent and useful if handled well, properly... almost like having a very large, strong paid laborer. In one place in Asia laboring elephants even know from habit what their days off are :)

The US Cavalry did attempt a Camel Corps in the southwest once, not very successfully... even hired an Ottoman Turk (I think of Greek ancestry) named Hajj Ali (or "Hi Jolly" to the locals :)) to assist in the training and handling...
Click to expand...
Yeah that's why I'm picturing 19th century having the Columbian drug hippo problem on steroids. Can anyone say hippo fishing with dynamite... :openedeyewink:

I could see the elephants being used to pull heavy artillery around the front or to haul wagon trains.

There's also that one guy from South Africa who trained an ape to man the switches of a railroad station, paying it with beer.
 
Aghasverov

Aghasverov

pattontank12 said:
Yeah that's why I'm picturing 19th century having the Columbian drug hippo problem on steroids. Can anyone say hippo fishing with dynamite... :openedeyewink:

I could see the elephants being used to pull heavy artillery around the front or to haul wagon trains.

There's also that one guy from South Africa who trained an ape to man the switches of a railroad station, paying it with beer.
Click to expand...
Ha! Yeah... not too far from me, a chimpanzee made the great Escape from a private zoo... they were able to lure him back though with 2 of his favorite things... a cigarette and a can of Pepsi :p
(before the zoo, he had just been living in some rich idiot's private residence... apparently the chimp had picked up some rather human vices ;))
 
pattontank12

pattontank12

Aghasverov said:
Ha! Yeah... not too far from me, a chimpanzee made the great Escape from a private zoo... they were able to lure him back though with 2 of his favorite things... a cigarette and a can of Pepsi :p
(before the zoo, he had just been living in some rich idiot's private residence... apparently the chimp had picked up some rather human vices ;))
Click to expand...
I can just see some railroad company trying to cut cost by replacing human employes with trained apes. With other industries following suite... only for to obviously go horribly wrong, since you know they're apes. :openedeyewink: Especially when the handlers are a bit short on hooch and tobacco on a particularly tough week.
 
Aghasverov

Aghasverov

pattontank12 said:
I can just see some railroad company trying to cut cost by replacing human employes with trained apes. With other industries following suite... only for to obviously go horribly wrong, since you know they're apes. :openedeyewink: Especially when the handlers are a bit short on hooch and tobacco on a particularly tough week.
Click to expand...
O God just don't let 'em unionize :p
I can see the headlines now... "Apes on Strike! Pinkertons sent in" :D
 

Byzantion

pattontank12 said:
Basically The Wild Wild West was a popular television series that ran from 1965 to 69, taking place nearly a century in the past during the Grant Administration. Following the exploits of the Secret Service agents James West and Artemus Gordon as they traveled across the west, often encountering technology far ahead of their time. Noticeably a few decades later two other television series would appear in the 90's with similar premises Legend featuring Richard Dean Anderson (which also took place during the Grant Administration) and The Adventures of Brisco County Jr. featuring Bruce Campbell. Alongside a certain film adaptation that shall not be named, all of which featured advanced even borderline sci-fi technology in the age of the American Wild West.

Now the question is how could we believably see a real life version of the Wild Wild West taking place during the later decades of the 19th century?
Click to expand...
Maybe a social class war involving Anarchist outlaws, drifters, miners, strikers, etc. Civil War veterans joining the cause. Pinkertons act as a paramilitary organisation assisted by private militias. Maybe wars betwees small Ranchers and big cattle barons.
 
Last edited:
pattontank12

pattontank12

How about Emperor Norton and California?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Emperor_Norton
Byzantion said:
Maybe a social class war involving Anarchist outlaws, drifters, miners, strikers, etc. Civil War veterans joining the course. Pinkertons act as a paramilitary organisation assisted by private militias. Maybe wars betwees small Ranchers and big cattle barons.
Click to expand...
Well there were already a number of small scale conflicts throughout the west up until the early 20th century. The most famous of which were the Range Wars over grazing rights and the frequency of conflicts between farmers and ranchers. So perhaps something where the conflicts were more pronounced and/or backed by political/international elements as proxy conflicts.
 
pattontank12

pattontank12

Wonder with the crazy technological advancements in this alt 19th century if Automaton's might be slightly more common. With the occasional mechanical clerk at your frontier city bank or train station.

What do you think 20th century aftermath of this crazy wild west will look like?
 

Don Corleone

Brady Kj said:
I suppose we can look into what fancy spy gadgets actually existed in those days, and think of why people would invent even fancier spy gadgets for government agents. I suspect they would largely be used to infiltrate the KKK.
Click to expand...

Would they go as far as tearing Tilden stickers off the bumpers of cars?
 
ZeroFrame

ZeroFrame

A couple of thoughts.

1. Steam is horribly inefficient so I don’t see it lasting long. However to keep the aesthetic I believe bigger coal engines could exist.
2. We could see an earlier rise in globalization therefore causing an earlier gilded age though a higher standard of living.
3. To keep the Wild West style I think the increase in technology would decrease in population growth allowing the American wilderness to stay filled with prairies, trees, and wild life (sign me up for that!)
4. I imagine eventually a switch to nuclear power would happen in order to power the large, weird and awesome airships, carriages, motorcycles, trains, and ships. The way to keep it safe is have batteries invented and allowed to be charged.
5. For colonization I expect some of it to take place in order to gain resources but in the end the lack of consumption due to a lower population would decrease it and many would see it as economically a waste of time and resources.
6. For politics with a rise in a industrial working class I can see Social Democracy (a mixed economy going by OTL definition) and Anarcho-Syndicalism (ownership on every level by the working class economically and in regards to the government, very interesting) being more popular faster. Due to Social Democrats being more compromising I would suspect them to be the ones that win out (hopefully led by Henry B. Whipple). For the Syndies I see John Brown leading them or some radical abolitionist who focuses on economics with slavery being quickly made unable to compete with automation.

That’s my ideas (that I have currently) for a Wild Wild West/Steampunk TL.
 

SPJ

I'm sorry for being late to this thread, but I have been working on an ASB Steampunk TL for years now and would love to share some of my ideas.

Firstly, I think the majority of Steampunk technology could be enabled through advances in materials science in the 1800s.
 
Last edited:

SPJ

Here is also a list of technologies that were at least patented by the 1860s of OTL that could have been expanded upon to further Steampunk-ish levels
Now here are a couple of pieces of technology that did not exist in the 1800s, but would make great for a Steampunk TL. They are cycloidal propellers and Fan-Wing aircraft. Now if you put these on a lighter than air airship, then you just went from the era of the paddle-wheel boat to the paddle-wheel airship!
 
Last edited:

HARRY

This is Big Lizzie possibly the largest traction engine in the with dreadnought wheels which were a variation of the Boydell wheel first used on carts during the Crimean War.
1598858537783.png
 

SPJ

Aghasverov said:
How portable? Something like a tripod mount, or one that could actually be held and fired standing? (would have to be a really Mini Gatling, and the hand-cranking might be a bit problematic...)
Click to expand...
According to an article from Scientific American the 1892 police model Gatling gun that was made in limited numbers was "but 74 pounds", sadly it does not say if that includes the weight of it's tripod or fully loaded drum magazine. I could see such a gun being carried through battle and used by three man teams like mobile machine gun units during WW1. Or even one man if he were to use a passive exoskeleton with spring balanced iso-elastic arms!
 
Last edited:

Byzantion

pattontank12 said:
Basically The Wild Wild West was a popular television series that ran from 1965 to 69, taking place nearly a century in the past during the Grant Administration. Following the exploits of the Secret Service agents James West and Artemus Gordon as they traveled across the west, often encountering technology far ahead of their time. Noticeably a few decades later two other television series would appear in the 90's with similar premises Legend featuring Richard Dean Anderson (which also took place during the Grant Administration) and The Adventures of Brisco County Jr. featuring Bruce Campbell. Alongside a certain film adaptation that shall not be named, all of which featured advanced even borderline sci-fi technology in the age of the American Wild West.

Now the question is how could we believably see a real life version of the Wild Wild West taking place during the later decades of the 19th century?
Click to expand...
Maybe a secret German Imperial buildup of troops in the 1890es at the Mexican border leads to heavy tensions.
 

Byzantion

pattontank12 said:
How about Emperor Norton and California?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Emperor_Norton

Well there were already a number of small scale conflicts throughout the west up until the early 20th century. The most famous of which were the Range Wars over grazing rights and the frequency of conflicts between farmers and ranchers. So perhaps something where the conflicts were more pronounced and/or backed by political/international elements as proxy conflicts.
Click to expand...
Yes, big cattle companies tended to monopolize and lynch "normal" ranchers as alleged cattle rustlers. They had been an unwanted competition and often authorities had been on the side of the monopols. In one of these range wars the small Ranchers seem to have picked up Anarchist ideology but I cant temember which one. There seem to have been many county wars like this but it is rarely contextualized in Western genre (range wars are often displayed as apolitical conflict between a good rancher and an evil one but mostly it is about an innocent town population vs a sadistic band of outlaws without a given historcal context). Which is interesting, because in history of Old West I dont have examples within US or territories where outlaws held an entire town as hostages and a feudal relationship. Mobility was high in many boom towns and conflict came mostly between factions within. People moved in and out, nobody was forced to stay. Maybe Henry Plummer was more like such a historic sadstic outlaw leader but he had been Sheriff aswell and part of the community. Also the outlaw bands in Arizona during Wyatt Earp's period had been as much members of society as they were outlaws.
 
Last edited:

Ficboy

Banned
It's a rather ASB scenario given the technological limitations of the mid to late 19th century but assuming if there is a Wild, Wild West like world then it would lead to an escalation in conflict and tension between superpowers.
 

SPJ

Byzantion said:
Yes, big cattle companies tended to monopolize and lynch. "normal" ranchers as alleged cattle rustlers. They had been an unwanted competition and often authorities had been on the side of the monopols. In one of these range wars the small Ranchers seem to have picked up Anarchist ideology but I cant temember which one. There seem to be many county wars like this but it is rarely contextualized in Western genre. (range wars are often displayed as apolitical conflict between a good rancher and a evil one but mostly it is about an innocent town population vs a sadistic band of outlaws withoit a given historcal context). Which is interesting, because in history of Old West I dont have examples withon US or territories where outlaws had an entire town as hostages and a feufal relationship. Mobility was high in many boom towns and conflict came mostly between factions within. Maybe Henry Plummer was more like such a historic sadstic outlaw leader but he had been Sheriff aswell and part of the community. Also the outlaw bands in Arizona during Wyatt Earp's period had been as much members of society as they were outlaws.
Click to expand...
Pale rider is one film I know of that has a strong storyline dealing with a large company trying to force out settlers for their mining operation. The Magnificent 7 remake also tried to do this, while also blending in the trope of sadistic feudal outlaws, and to the story's detriment in my opinion. The Ballad of Lefty Brown is another ahistorical western of recent memory that ties a legal conspiracy into its plot. I'm not sure of any that actually do a good job of tying in the real life politics of the era sadly.
 
pattontank12

pattontank12

Ficboy said:
It's a rather ASB scenario given the technological limitations of the mid to late 19th century but assuming if there is a Wild, Wild West like world then it would lead to an escalation in conflict and tension between superpowers.
Click to expand...
I guess the best way to describe this scenario is "how do we get technology as steampunk as possible while still being more or less plausible" and throwing it in with the wild west.
Byzantion said:
Yes, big cattle companies tended to monopolize and lynch. "normal" ranchers as alleged cattle rustlers. They had been an unwanted competition and often authorities had been on the side of the monopols. In one of these range wars the small Ranchers seem to have picked up Anarchist ideology but I cant temember which one. There seem to be many county wars like this but it is rarely contextualized in Western genre. (range wars are often displayed as apolitical conflict between a good rancher and a evil one but mostly it is about an innocent town population vs a sadistic band of outlaws withoit a given historcal context). Which is interesting, because in history of Old West I dont have examples withon US or territories where outlaws had an entire town as hostages and a feufal relationship. Mobility was high in many boom towns and conflict came mostly between factions within. Maybe Henry Plummer was more like such a historic sadstic outlaw leader but he had been Sheriff aswell and part of the community. Also the outlaw bands in Arizona during Wyatt Earp's period had been as much members of society as they were outlaws.
Click to expand...
This is making me picture a second American Civil War a few decades after the first. Only this time it's against radical anarchist and socialist revolutionaries trying to overthrow gilded age America... so Bioshock Infinite meets Red Dead Redemption anyone. :p
SPJ said:
According to an article from Scientific American the 1892 police model Gatling gun that was made in limited numbers was "but 74 pounds", sadly it does not say if that includes the weight of it's tripod or fully loaded drum magazine. I could see such a gun being carried through battle and used by three man teams like mobile machine gun units during WW1. Or even one man if he were to use a passive exoskeleton with spring balanced iso-elastic arms!
Click to expand...
Okay change the aesthetics a little and it would fit right in with a steampunk fps!
Blue Sky said:
A couple of thoughts.

1. Steam is horribly inefficient so I don’t see it lasting long. However to keep the aesthetic I believe bigger coal engines could exist.
2. We could see an earlier rise in globalization therefore causing an earlier gilded age though a higher standard of living.
3. To keep the Wild West style I think the increase in technology would decrease in population growth allowing the American wilderness to stay filled with prairies, trees, and wild life (sign me up for that!)
4. I imagine eventually a switch to nuclear power would happen in order to power the large, weird and awesome airships, carriages, motorcycles, trains, and ships. The way to keep it safe is have batteries invented and allowed to be charged.
5. For colonization I expect some of it to take place in order to gain resources but in the end the lack of consumption due to a lower population would decrease it and many would see it as economically a waste of time and resources.
6. For politics with a rise in a industrial working class I can see Social Democracy (a mixed economy going by OTL definition) and Anarcho-Syndicalism (ownership on every level by the working class economically and in regards to the government, very interesting) being more popular faster. Due to Social Democrats being more compromising I would suspect them to be the ones that win out (hopefully led by Henry B. Whipple). For the Syndies I see John Brown leading them or some radical abolitionist who focuses on economics with slavery being quickly made unable to compete with automation.

That’s my ideas (that I have currently) for a Wild Wild West/Steampunk TL.
Click to expand...
Okay first off... that sounds awesome! Anyways that's very true about the inefficiency's of steam engine. I'd expect that by the final two decades of the 19th things would already be transitioning more towards dieselpunk, with doble styled steam engines being fazed out for internal combustion engines and maybe the occasional electric motor. Speaking about electricity wonder what Edison and Nikola Tesla would be getting up to in a steampunk 19th century.
 

SPJ

pattontank12 said:
I guess the best way to describe this scenario is "how do we get technology as steampunk as possible while still being more or less plausible" and throwing it in with the wild west.

This is making me picture a second American Civil War a few decades after the first. Only this time it's against radical anarchist and socialist revolutionaries trying to overthrow gilded age America... so Bioshock Infinite meets Red Dead Redemption anyone. :p

Okay change the aesthetics a little and it would fit right in with a steampunk fps!

Okay first off... that sounds awesome! Anyways that's very true about the inefficiency's of steam engine. I'd expect that by the final two decades of the 19th things would already be transitioning more towards dieselpunk, with doble styled steam engines being fazed out for internal combustion engines and maybe the occasional electric motor. Speaking about electricity wonder what Edison and Nikola Tesla would be getting up to in a steampunk 19th century.
Click to expand...
I think the rise of Diesalpunk tech and use of the internal combustion engine could be curtailed given the right circumstances. I imagine that if monotube style boilers heated by liquid fuels with efficiency levels comparable to those made by Doble were created and popularized in the 1870s, then by the time efficient internal combustion engines were invented in the late 1890s of OTL, there would already be a lot of infrastructure dedicated to the use of these monotube style engines. So there would be a bias against the adoption of the internal combustion engine. Just like the oil and auto industries of OTL, such companies in this TL would have an investment bias towards the technology they had already invested so much money and infrastructure into producing, and would likely try to secure their share of the market by sabotaging any possible threat of an up and coming company trying to sell combustion engines or vehicles that run on them. So Steampunk style tech could continue with a large presence for decades longer simply due to socio-economic reasons.
 
Last edited:
You must log in or register to reply here.
Top
Top