AHC: A Portuguese *Canadá?

[miguelrj]

Are you going for the ambitious Portugal gets the equivalent of New France at its height? Because if it's just a Portuguese Newfoundland (and little or nothing more) you don't really need to do away with Portuguese colonization of Brazil.

If it's Portuguese Newfoundland, regarding linguistics I also imagined it as an extra Atlantic island. The Azores and Madeira have different yet similar accents and I'd look to those dialects as a good basis for Portuguese Newfoundland's.

If it's an ambitious Brazil-in-Canada thing, I think the greatest threat to overcome is Portuguese focus in India. Brazil had for itself not only being lucrative on its own but being conveniently located near the route to India.

Regarding Jews... their OTL fate is far from sealed. Brush away the Catholic Monarchs or at least their leverage to influence the Portuguese king on this specific topic and they're off the hook. Alternatively, they'll be easily appeased with "expulsion from the kingdom" being meant as "expulsion from mainland Portugal".

 

[Tobit]

Maybe the spanish are victorious in the The Battle of Guinea and the Treaty of Alcáçovas gives Castille rights to the Guinea Coast. This would be a huge blow for Portugal but perhaps they now focus more on the Cod trade and wind up sending explorers out to the places north.

I could then see Castille expanding down the African Coast and probably into Brazil like the Portuguese did.

 

[Archangel]

I'm bumping this thread because I'm serious about trying to construct a TL along these lines. On the language front, I'm already requesting books via different libraries on the Portuguese language, so that not only would I be able to have a basic grasp of the grammar (it shouldn't be hard, given my de facto second language is French), but also make myself familiar with any and all dialectal variation I can pluck. With respect to our Brazilian AH.commers (Gonzaga in particular), not every Portuguese variety spoken outside Portugal has to copy Brazil. So it's something I want to pursue. (Granted, for those familiar with my workload, it would be one of many TL projects I have, but I think I can handle them all.) Otherwise, I'd be interested to go ahead with this.

Now, it looks like that to pull it off, I'd need to pull off an early POD where no Treaty of Tordesillas would be needed and Portugal would have to back off from Brazil. That bit can easily be done. What then becomes the next step is figuring out not only how to get Portuguese people over (this shouldn't be hard, given that the Grand Banks attracted people of all sorts, and even with Portuguese colonization I don't see this attraction diminishing), but also two inter-related factors: how Portugal at this stage in the 1400s treats its Jewish people - and as I see it, Jews will play an important role in the story - and also how the Portuguese will have relations with the indigenous people here (or Aboriginals, or First Nations, or Native Americans, or whatever you want to call them). For some of them, there already is some memory of the earlier European presence with the Vikings (which is why the Beothuk, at first contact, tried to avoid Europeans as much as possible), so this is one barrier that would not only have to be overcome but also one that any Portuguese explorer would have to keep in mind.

So, having said that, what are your thoughts?

If it's Portuguese Newfoundland, regarding linguistics I also imagined it as an extra Atlantic island. The Azores and Madeira have different yet similar accents and I'd look to those dialects as a good basis for Portuguese Newfoundland's.

When creating ATL dialects of Portuguese, think about the parent dialects (the parts of Portugal they came from) and other non-Portuguese contributions that may happen.

If it's an ambitious Brazil-in-Canada thing, I think the greatest threat to overcome is Portuguese focus in India. Brazil had for itself not only being lucrative on its own but being conveniently located near the route to India.

Regarding Jews... their OTL fate is far from sealed. Brush away the Catholic Monarchs or at least their leverage to influence the Portuguese king on this specific topic and they're off the hook. Alternatively, they'll be easily appeased with "expulsion from the kingdom" being meant as "expulsion from mainland Portugal".

I agree on both things.

 

[Dan1988]

When creating ATL dialects of Portuguese, think about the parent dialects (the parts of Portugal they came from) and other non-Portuguese contributions that may happen.

Oh, definitely. I actually found out whilst looking on the Internet that apparently during the 15th century, in some areas of interior Portugal, there was a vowel shift not too different of what actually happened with French. Remnants of it are still around in some places, with the best example being Sao Miguel island in the Azores but with partial results in some areas of the Algarve as well as Castelo Branco and Portalegre. So now I'm curious - i.e. how far did it spread; how did it get reversed; how did it operate; etc. etc. So now I'm requesting books on Portuguese through an inter-library loan system we have here, so we'll see how that goes. (In some areas, in fact, I'm actually targeting northern Portuguese dialects as well as neighboring Galician.) Also, every language has its own features which nowadays are considered archaic. I wonder what those would be in the case of Portuguese (I know that for French, for example, Canadian French has preserved some phonetic and lexical details from the 17th century, including words which are archaic or died out elsewhere in the Francophonie but are still alive in North America; in addition, there's also French's literary tenses, such as the past historic and the past anterior.)

However, even then sometimes the original parent dialects may have evolved long after areas were first colonized - Brazilian Portuguese, for example, was originally supposed to be based on the northern and central dialects of Portugal as was spoken around the 1500s but thanks to changes in Portugal the phonology of Brazilian Portuguese now partially approximates that of southern Portugal - a complete shift in Portugal which was and is not found in Brazil.

 

[Dan1988]

Are you going for the ambitious Portugal gets the equivalent of New France at its height? Because if it's just a Portuguese Newfoundland (and little or nothing more) you don't really need to do away with Portuguese colonization of Brazil.

The former (and then some!), though I can build it up first with a Portuguese Newfoundland with adjacent areas, such as the OTL Canadian Maritime Provinces which actually aren't that distant), and thus have it as preparation for North America.

If it's an ambitious Brazil-in-Canada thing, I think the greatest threat to overcome is Portuguese focus in India. Brazil had for itself not only being lucrative on its own but being conveniently located near the route to India.

Yeah, I figured that would be a problem. The eternal question - how to reconcile cod and beaver furs with India?

Regarding Jews... their OTL fate is far from sealed. Brush away the Catholic Monarchs or at least their leverage to influence the Portuguese king on this specific topic and they're off the hook. Alternatively, they'll be easily appeased with "expulsion from the kingdom" being meant as "expulsion from mainland Portugal".

How could the leverage of the Catholic Monarchs be reduced? As for the whole expulsion thing - why am I reminded with what Gonzaga did with one of his TLs where he had some of the Jewish community settle in southern Africa?

 

[miguelrj]

(SNIP/schooling about the Portuguese language)

The things I learn! I wouldn't even begin to imagine that S. Miguel's dialect had anything in common with Portalegre's...

Yeah, I figured that would be a problem. The eternal question - how to reconcile cod and beaver furs with India?

If the Portuguese were true to themselves cod should trump clove.

How could the leverage of the Catholic Monarchs be reduced?

Short of marrying outside of the Peninsula which is hard to avoid, I suppose there could be subtle butterflies that would avoid that get-rid-of-the-Jews clause of the 1497 marriage. One simple example: João II's son's marriage to a daughter of the Catholic Monarchs came early enough not to come with strings attached. Had he lived* the Catholic Monarchs could still later bribe him into following their internal policy but they'd have to find other ways to achieve that in their lifetimes.

*and for simplicity let's assume the Prince of Asturias lives, too.

As for the whole expulsion thing - why am I reminded with what Gonzaga did with one of his TLs where he had some of the Jewish community settle in southern Africa?

Gonzaga has more than one TL? I'm missing out.

 

[Dan1988]

The things I learn! I wouldn't even begin to imagine that S. Miguel's dialect had anything in common with Portalegre's...

I was just as shocked as you are when I found that out. Of course, that bit is making me all the more curious.

If the Portuguese were true to themselves cod should trump clove.

Well, that's good. Let's hope they can manage with our harsh winters. (Well, the 19th century immigrants did; I'm sure 15th century ones wouldn't have a problem.)

Short of marrying outside of the Peninsula which is hard to avoid, I suppose there could be subtle butterflies that would avoid that get-rid-of-the-Jews clause of the 1497 marriage. One simple example: João II's son's marriage to a daughter of the Catholic Monarchs came early enough not to come with strings attached. Had he lived* the Catholic Monarchs could still later bribe him into following their internal policy but they'd have to find other ways to achieve that in their lifetimes.

*and for simplicity let's assume the Prince of Asturias lives, too.

Hmm, that's interesting.

Gonzaga has more than one TL? I'm missing out.

Well, from I what I remember one was a reboot of the other, but touching around the same topic. But in one of them some Jews/New Christians/etc. were "encouraged" to move to southern Africa to shore up Portuguese control there (around modern-day KZN, IIRC).

 

[Dan1988]

And, for good measure, if you can get past some of the technical vocabulary this is an interesting insight, but only scratching the surface of Azorean.
http://www.uel.br/revistas/uel/index.php/signum/article/viewFile/3758/3020

 

[funnyhat]

One idea might be to have the Dutch occupation of Brazil become a permanent conquest. Portuguese colonists would then have to find another place to settle, and Asia was very far. Enter North America into the picture.

 

[Dan1988]

Tis' an interesting concept, funnyhat. A possibility, sure.

 

[Dan1988]

Maybe the spanish are victorious in the The Battle of Guinea and the Treaty of Alcáçovas gives Castille rights to the Guinea Coast. This would be a huge blow for Portugal but perhaps they now focus more on the Cod trade and wind up sending explorers out to the places north.

I could then see Castille expanding down the African Coast and probably into Brazil like the Portuguese did.

Forgot to answer to this one. That could be a possibility, yes, but it does not address the problem of the Catholic Monarchs on one hand, and the situation of the Jews on the other. Ideally, I wouldn't want Portugal to choose between *Canada on one hand and India on the other (since both could be complementary), but if forced to choose would have the emphasis first on *Canada.

 

[Dan1988]

Anyone else?

 

[ramones1986]

"Isto é a Sociedade Radio-Canadá, a rede nacional"