AHC: A More Secular Middle East

[walmart]

But if he dies before the Suez crisis and all the other things that made him famous, it stands to reason that Pan-Arabism wouldn't have caught on like it did.

The argument was on whether or not Nasser death would damaged or prevent the rise of Pan-Arabism. Whether or not events play like otl is irrelevant if the question is whether or the Ideology will rise to prominence.

 

[Prof_Chemical]

Sankara banned trade unions, labeling them "counterrevolutionary," and had their members detained and brutally tortured. He also cut off all foreign aid to the country. If you want to point to an African socialist who wasn't awful, you basically only have Leopold Senghor. The African anti-colonial leaders who weren't awful tended to be liberals like Seretse Khama or Nelson Mandela, not Marxists.

the unions in bukino faso were super reactionary though, we arent talking the iww here.

 

[Sailor Haumea]

USSR surviving until the modern day might help. Communism seem to greatly secularize Muslims groups in most cases(communism did do some good things). Them winning in Afghanistan could eventually see the population become more secular at the cost of being a rather strict and brutal regime. Iran keeps the Shan. Iraq stays under Saddam control(Soviet Union lasting longer helps that). Him taking Kuwait somehow also helps(less Arab monarchs probably means more secular regimes. Nationalist are dictators but usually not as religious as most monarchs). The current Jordan monarch line winning out against Saudi would be big too. Jordan and otl Saudi under the Jordan royal family would be conservative but no where as bad as Saudi. They would also not be trying to spread Wahhabism everywhere. Gaddafi not coming to power helps too(that man wasn’t a radical Islamist he was just crazy somehow got power. He literally gave money and weapons to both communist, nationalist, and Islamist which makes zero sense considering the conflicts in ideology. Basically anyone who hated the west he usually supported). Could a Jordan ruled Arabia also get the United Emirates or any additional areas in the region?

Egypt could still go through it otl issues but Islamist don’t rise there if things go different elsewhere. Syria stays stable under Assad. Lebanon becomes a homeland for Christians in the Middle East(Christians in the Middle East are actual much more religious then Christians in the west but “westernizing” them might be easier since they are likely to lean towards friendly relations with Israel which means Syria is likely to hate them which means more trade/influence from the west which might lead to secularization there). Yemen goes full socialist and becomes a struggling but politically stable nation. Pakistan is kept as part of India and so is Bangladesh. Algeria stays part of France.

There is so much wrong with this post. "Stability" is meaningless if it comes from an authoritarian regime brutally suppressing dissent. And the Assad regime was never stable. Bashar was funneling Al-Qaeda fighters into Iraq during the Iraq War and calling them "volunteers for jihad."

 

[Sailor Haumea]

the unions in bukino faso were super reactionary though, we arent talking the iww here.

That doesn't justify banning them, let alone detaining and torturing their members.

 

[Modern Imperialism]

There is so much wrong with this post. "Stability" is meaningless if it comes from an authoritarian regime brutally suppressing dissent. And the Assad regime was never stable. Bashar was funneling Al-Qaeda fighters into Iraq during the Iraq War and calling them "volunteers for jihad."

Albania was a brutal communist regime but the population there was greatly secularized. Women rights went up greatly(they didn’t have much rights at all but at least they were equal to the men).

 

[Prof_Chemical]

That doesn't justify banning them, let alone detaining and torturing their members.

ok you got me there, especially since he was less harsh on the former elites he publicily shamed. nothing justifies torture

 

[BigBlueBox]

Regarding Mossadegh, a problem is that it's possible that if he remained in power, there may have still been an Islamic Revolution, but against him, instead of against the Shah. It should be noted that he had land reform plans, as noted in https://www.alternatehistory.com/fo...-against-mossadegh-fail.423678/#post-15396148, if those plans weren't very different from the Shah's land reform, of our timeline, they would probably have had the same disastrous effects but with social grievances being direted against Mossadegh instead of against the Shah. The clericals had also turned from supporting Mossadegh to opposing him. Unfortunately, Mossadegh's secularization efforts could have led to a conservative backlash, as the Shah's did, in our timeline.

The existence of electoral democracy would act as an automatic pressure relief valve. Any Islamic conservative backlash would lead to an Erdogan-like figure in the worst case, not an Ayatollah as Supreme Leader.

 

[Sailor Haumea]

Albania was a brutal communist regime but the population there was greatly secularized. Women rights went up greatly(they didn’t have much rights at all but at least they were equal to the men).

I don't care about "secularism" if it's enforced by a police state.

 

[Modern Imperialism]

I don't care about "secularism" if it's enforced by a police state.

That’s not the point of this is it? I’m just giving out possible ways for it to happen. No one wants a police state but isn’t the point of this is figuring out how secularization could happen? European secularization was often very bloody and forced

 

[kernals12]

Thomas sankara in the former upper volta, now bukino faso. did nothing but good, fed the people, vaccinated them, forced everyone to respect women. killed by his best mate who sold out to the french. Thats limiting it to marxist states. i am not a marxist and make no apologies for them, but saying they are the scope of what communism is like saying absolutists are all monarchy can be or that democracy can only be liberal. i was saying centrists over communists and fascists.

The human rights abuses of Sankara's regime are well documented.

 

[walmart]

Iraq stays under Saddam control

Saddam stopped being secular after the gulf war
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Faith_campaign

Lebanon becomes a homeland for Christians in the Middle East

Outside of the groups living in Lebanon none of the other Christianity group have any historical ties or need to move there without a massive increase persecution which would negate the whole more secular middle east

might be easier since they are likely to lean towards friendly relations with Israel

I hate this myth
https://www.pewresearch.org/global/2011/07/21/muslim-western-tensions-persist/3/

Pakistan is kept as part of India and so is Bangladesh. Algeria stays part of France.

Both of these would lead to massive Islamic/Nationalist insurgencies in both Counties

Israel keeps Sinai and doesn’t grant Orthodox Jews any special privileges

So no peace with Egypt I see

Could a place like the United Emirates or Gulf monarchs get overthrown by a revolt by the now non-citizen majority(people from India out number the locals in many of these kingdoms)?

You mean the unarmed population in areas depended on stability for food,water, and jobs.

 

[Ricardolindo]

The existence of electoral democracy would act as an automatic pressure relief valve. Any Islamic conservative backlash would lead to an Erdogan-like figure in the worst case, not an Ayatollah as Supreme Leader.

See my other post as well as other users' posts for why Mossadegh wasn't as democratic as you believe.

Albania was a brutal communist regime but the population there was greatly secularized. Women rights went up greatly(they didn’t have much rights at all but at least they were equal to the men).

There had already been several secular and liberal reforms in pre-Communist Albania, read https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Islam...iod_(1919–39):_State_interference_and_reforms, the hijab was made voluntary and eventually banned, poligamy was banned and sharia law was abolished.

 

[Modern Imperialism]

Saddam stopped being secular after the gulf war
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Faith_campaign


Outside of the groups living in Lebanon none of the other Christianity group have any historical ties or need to move there without a massive increase persecution which would negate the whole more secular middle east


I hate this myth
https://www.pewresearch.org/global/2011/07/21/muslim-western-tensions-persist/3/


Both of these would lead to massive Islamic/Nationalist insurgencies in both Counties


So no peace with Egypt I see


You mean the unarmed population in areas depended on stability for food,water, and jobs.

The Saddam is if the Gulf War doesn’t happen or the US stays out of it. Also would a Kurdish State be rather secular if it gets independence later on?

 

[BigBlueBox]

See my other post as well as other users' posts for why Mossadegh wasn't as democratic as you believe.

Mossadegh would never have the power to establish a dictatorship even if he wanted to. The army was clearly on the Shah’s side and the two would keep each other in check.

 

[walmart]

Also would a Kurdish State be rather secular if it gets independence later on?

Probably

 

[Modern Imperialism]

See my other post as well as other users' posts for why Mossadegh wasn't as democratic as you believe.



There had already been several secular and liberal reforms in pre-Communist Albania, read https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Islam...iod_(1919–39):_State_interference_and_reforms, the hijab was made voluntary and eventually banned, poligamy was banned and sharia law was abolished.

With the exception of modern Turkey all Muslim countries that were previously under communist regimes have been more secular then the ones who have not. That had nothing to do with Islam itself but all religions. Christians also became much more secular under communist regimes due to extreme suppression. Both groups didn’t see a regrow and spiritual renaissance until after the fall of communism. Russia was much much more conservative before communism on many things. Communism often targeted the most religious sects and people

 

[Sailor Haumea]

Mossadegh would never have the power to establish a dictatorship even if he wanted to. The army was clearly on the Shah’s side and the two would keep each other in check.

I mean, the dictatorship was already established. His party being the majority in Parliament was based on illegitimate behavior, and he rigged a referendum to dissolve Parliament.

 

[Prof_Chemical]

The human rights abuses of Sankara's regime are well documented.

im sorry but could you help a brother out here, whenever i try to research this i can never find details beyond "abuses acured" only to them skip over it and go into depth about the abuses of the NEXT regime.

 

[Ricardolindo]

With the exception of modern Turkey all Muslim countries that were previously under communist regimes have been more secular then the ones who have not. That had nothing to do with Islam itself but all religions. Christians also became much more secular under communist regimes due to extreme suppression. Both groups didn’t see a regrow and spiritual renaissance until after the fall of communism. Russia was much much more conservative before communism on many things. Communism often targeted the most religious sects and people

The Soviet Union was far from being socially liberal/progessive, gays were sent to gulag, there.

 

[Modern Imperialism]

The Soviet Union was far from being socially liberal/progessive, gays were sent to gulag, there.

Non-religious people and atheist can be homophobic too. That isn’t just religious people