AHC: A more ethnically diverse China

[Kushim]

China is of course ethnically diverse as every state today is one way or another, but its clear a single ethnic group makes up 9/10 out of everybody here, the challenge is simple, make it less so, make China comparable to India and Europe, in that while the cultures are part of a wider Sinosphere (not necessarily though) these new would-be states don't have an incentive to claim the Mandate of Heaven or atleast one on the level that the Han have done on the entire region.

P.S. Whether the region we'd call China gets united under a single government like India in the modern era or whether it stays divided under states that have a seperate identity from the Han and the ability to back it up with military force and a larger population base similar to Europe is up to you

 

[Ogrelord420]

Han people aren't really a singular identity, comprising multiple subethnic groups, so you could have these groups become more distinct, sort of like what happened to the Germanic tribes.

 

[Fatt Shea]

If you prevent China from being unified after one of its many splits then the regional differences in language and culture would become greater due to border restrictions. You could also avoid Mongolia, Manchuria, Yunnan and Xingjiang from becoming Chinese ruled meaning their native cultures would be stronger. If you want this China to unite again then maybe it could happen if the end up being conquered by a European power, like how India was united again by being conquered by the British

 

[Kushim]

If you prevent China from being unified after one of its many splits then the regional differences in language and culture would become greater due to border restrictions.

Definitely, though I am wondering what would it take for their ethnic groups, particularly in the southern regions to have the technological and population base to back up their seperatism like in say, the Warring States period, or just generally be able to fend of the Chinese empires long enough to develop their own complex culture, a new crop perhaps?

 

[Kushim]

Han people aren't really a singular identity, comprising multiple subethnic groups, so you could have these groups become more distinct, sort of like what happened to the Germanic tribes.

would removing the concept of Mandate of Heaven make the split more likely?

 

[Mitchell Hundred]

90% of Chinese are nominally Han but there are cultural and genetic differences between northern and southern Chinese for example. Other groups in China were assimilated into becoming "Han" (that process is still happening in the west of the country). Have the Han be less aggressive in converting other groups into Hans, perhaps similar to what Russia did with giving its non-slavic population groups autonomous regions.

 

[Stellar_Lights]

One idea you could use is having stronger presence of various Indo-European and Uralic ethnicities in the West and Central parts of China, while having more stronger presence of the Mongolic, Yenisei, Tungusic and Turkic people in the North. Eventually, have these cultures and tribes percolate into China, mix with the Han and carve out their niche, and you have a more ethnically diverse country.

 

[LeX]

Eliminate or diversify the use of Chinese characters. IOTL the widespread use and standardization of writing across different spoken languages had a strong unifying effect as it meant the same ideas and orthodoxies could be disseminated across a continent-sized area for thousands of years, forming a supra-regional culture.

If Chinese used phonetic writing instead of characters, and stayed politically disunited for long periods of time, there'd be like between 30 and 90 tiny countries there and infinitely more differences between their cultures and peoples than IOTL.

 

[Stellar_Lights]

I don't think you can get a China like India or Africa, owing to the Geography of that country. It is a rich and productive land, with diverse Geographies inside it, with rivers with green and even mountains, even plateaus. All these surrounded by a harsh and cruel steppe. A civilization will come up in China, whether built by Han, Proto Ainu, Mongolic people, Uralic peoples or the Indo-Europeans. Eventually, they need to develop the same sophisticated culture and warrior/tribal strategy that the Han adopted. Eventually, the other tribes, inside the protected and rich region of China, will sway and be swayed, towards the dominant culture or the ethnicity, to assimilate or at lease, fall in their circles, to be their allies, to protect and be protected, from the cruel steppe.

You might have a bit more Linguistic and Physique related diversity. But the diversity of culture and tribes, like in India, is almost impossible. They will still fall under the same umbrella, and implement similar Philosophies, even if they have a slightly diverse physiques and languages.

 

[Kushim]

Eliminate or diversify the use of Chinese characters. IOTL the widespread use and standardization of writing across different spoken languages had a strong unifying effect as it meant the same ideas and orthodoxies could be disseminated across a continent-sized area for thousands of years, forming a supra-regional culture.

If Chinese used phonetic writing instead of characters, and stayed politically disunited for long periods of time, there'd be like between 30 and 90 tiny countries there and infinitely more differences between their cultures and peoples than IOTL.

Oooh, this is interesting, why a change its nature as a character based writing, couldn't other non-Han develop a character writing counterpart too?

 

[Stellar_Lights]

and stayed politically disunited for long periods of time

Sounds like ASB given the Geography. Unless you find a way to create a large Pan Steppe settled Empire from the Volga/Pontic regions to the Lake Baikal region, which is incredibly difficult and takes several high reaching changes and challenges, to achieve. It will likely create an evolutionary layer like in the Tibetans, when such a thing is achieved, which will percolate into China, too.

 

[Metempsychosis]

You might have a bit more Linguistic and Physique related diversity. But the diversity of culture and tribes, like in India, is almost impossible. They will still fall under the same umbrella, and implement similar Philosophies, even if they have a slightly diverse physiques and languages

Uhhh. *looks at the vast divisions within India before the Raj*

 

[Kushim]

Sounds like ASB given the Geography. Unless you find a way to create a large Pan Steppe settled Empire from the Volga/Pontic regions to the Lake Baikal region, which is incredibly difficult and takes several high reaching changes and challenges, to achieve. It will likely create an evolutionary layer like in the Tibetans, when such a thing is achieved, which will percolate into China, too.

I mean, technically the flat north European plain should be the site of a single hegemon but instead we have a patchwork of competing powers like France, the German kingdoms, Poland and what have you all in that region, I think its not that implausible for the same to happen on China

 

[Stellar_Lights]

I mean, technically the flat north European plain should be the site of a single hegemon but instead we have a patchwork of competing powers like France, the German kingdoms, Poland and what have you all in that region, I think its not that implausible for the same to happen on China

No. It's very different. Poland, Germany, Scandinavia, Baltics, Romania, Hungary, etc are bordered by the forest steppes. Northern European plain isn't the same as the nomadic warlord dominated steppe. The invasions tend to be dampened in that case, more often than not (though some percolate, like the Huns and Mongols). These steppe people like Scythians and Kazars never attacked Europe, significantly. China's borders are mostly around harsh, cold and dry steppes, where the warriors are far more fierce. China was always sitting on a tinderbox if it didn't unify the way it did. Just open the door once, and you're done for. This is the reason for China's homogeneity. The people in those plains and forest steppes already control food sources and fertile lands. They aren't usually hungry and thirsty for new lands, when they get a chance, unlike the Eastern Steppes.

 

[kholieken]

Sounds like ASB given the Geography.

But half chinese history had divided and diverse China. Its difficult, but not impossible. Song conquest of South China, Yuan conquest of Southern Song, Ming conquest of Northern China, and Qing conquest of South China all need long campaign that exploit opponent weakness, different TL could easily make any of those campaign failed and China failed to unify.

 

[Zireael]

I'll just note that Chinese characters indeed had a large unifying effect up to and including the "Chinese language" - which to be frank is something that doesn't exist, Chinese is a vast continuum of dialects (even larger and more different than Arabic) that has a prestige dialect (Mandarin) and use the same writing system.

Even with them involved, you could probably pull off a more divided/diverse China, e.g. by having more steppe nomads settle down in the border regions. You can do this multiple times with multiple groups, or even have them overtake the capital from inside, Aisin-Gioro style

 

[Stellar_Lights]

But half chinese history had divided and diverse China. Its difficult, but not impossible. Song conquest of South China, Yuan conquest of Southern Song, Ming conquest of Northern China, and Qing conquest of South China all need long campaign that exploit opponent weakness, different TL could easily make any of those campaign failed and China failed to unify.

Diversity will still likely be limited, though.

by having more steppe nomads settle down in the border regions

This happened. They still exist. But in small numbers. Steppe borderlands cannot carry that many people because they are hostile landscapes and little to no rivers. Han around the Yangtze and Yellow, outnumber them hugely.

 

[Kushim]

No. It's very different. Poland, Germany, Scandinavia, Baltics, Romania, Hungary, etc are bordered by the forest steppes.

A relatively flat plain at that, which makes and has made conquests more convenient, The North China isn't just a flat grassland, its also got its own forests which only decreased cos of agriculture and is something the European plain had experienced too.

These steppe people like Scythians and Kazars never attacked Europe, significantly. China's borders are mostly around harsh, cold and dry steppes, where the warriors are far more fierce.

well no but the Magyars, Cumans, Pechenegs, and Kipchaks beg to differ, one of these even manage to mostly survive total assimilation in fact.

 

[Kushim]

I'll just note that Chinese characters indeed had a large unifying effect up to and including the "Chinese language" - which to be frank is something that doesn't exist, Chinese is a vast continuum of dialects (even larger and more different than Arabic) that has a prestige dialect (Mandarin) and use the same writing system.

so a good first step is to butterfly away the pinyin eh? I'm no expert on the writing system but can you explain what about it made it uniquely universal, where the Mediterrenean abjads couldn't?

 

[The_Persian_Cat]

China is very ethnically diverse. However, it also depends on what we define as "China" -- are you including Xinjiang/East Turkestan? Kyrgyzstan? Tibet? Outer Mongolia? Taiwan? Manchuria? Hong Kong? Macau? All of these have been part of China historically (some are part of China now), but have demographic identities of their own. Just goes to show you how diverse "China" has been historically, and still is.