AH challenge: Osman II waters his horses in the Baltic

Dr Pervez Hoodbhoy

Banned
In 1620, the young Ottoman sultan Osman II promised to do just that in response to a Cossack raid on Varna. Your challenge, should you choose to accept it, is to have him keep his promise with a POD no earlier than 1620.

OK, now this is the last one for today.
 

Calgacus

basically all you need is an ottoman victory at khotyn in 1621 - i don't know that much about the battle, but i'm pretty sure that if the polish cossack allies didn't turn up and save the day, the ottomans would have won by default, leaving poland open before them. problem is, winter would come on before they could advance much further north. even if they returned in the spring, there is a danger that austria, russia, sweden etc might intervene to prevent an ottoman victory... not sure how far along the 30 years war had gotten, this might have divided christian europe, allowing an ottoman victory.
 

Wendell

Calgacus said:
basically all you need is an ottoman victory at khotyn in 1621 - i don't know that much about the battle, but i'm pretty sure that if the polish cossack allies didn't turn up and save the day, the ottomans would have won by default, leaving poland open before them. problem is, winter would come on before they could advance much further north. even if they returned in the spring, there is a danger that austria, russia, sweden etc might intervene to prevent an ottoman victory... not sure how far along the 30 years war had gotten, this might have divided christian europe, allowing an ottoman victory.
Click to expand...

Or, the Ottomans may have overreached, hastening their eventual collapse.
 

Iñaki

Originally posted by VoCSe
now this is the last one for today.
Click to expand...

VoCSe, a thread to maint all joint in the fire, join in the darkness of the terrible Lord of the Challenges:D

In 1621 in Europe was beginning the war of the Thirty Years, so this could go in benefit of the ottomans victorious at Khotyn.
 

Keenir

Banned
at what point in history were the Poles and Ottomans allies?

they were in OTL, I'm sure of it.
 

Burton K Wheeler

Moderator
Wendell said:
Or, the Ottomans may have overreached, hastening their eventual collapse.
Click to expand...

By "watering his horses in the Baltic", Osman meant a raid, not an actual attempt to occupy Russia. The victory at Khotyn may be enough to allow Turkish raiders to ride north, but I think weather and the concerns of overstretch of the Army would have prevented that.
No major long-term effects on history even if they did win at Khotyn, because the treaty in 1621 left the citadel to the Turks.
 

CDurham

Cockroach said:
He gets captured, passed on to the Russian Tzar as a prize of some form and carted north...:D
Click to expand...

And, according to the Rules of War at the time (which by the way, is why he had to be taken alive, only one king can kill another) the Tzar holds the Sultan in decent comfort while sending the ransom demand to the Ottoman Empire. After gaining the ransom, in the form of money and more land (possibly the North half of the Black Sea coast and parts of the Crimea) he allows the Sultan and the other captives to return home.
 

Dr Pervez Hoodbhoy

Banned
CDurham said:
the Tzar holds the Sultan in decent comfort while sending the ransom demand to the Ottoman Empire.
Click to expand...

Muscovy didn't even have a Baltic coastline at this time. Osman can get there without ever having to set foot on Russian or even Cossack territory. Why do you guys bring it up?
 

Max Sinister

Banned
Hey, you brought this POD up. So Osman II would have to make war against Poland-Lithuania? Or didn't he know enough about European geography?
 

Dr Pervez Hoodbhoy

Banned
Max Sinister said:
Hey, you brought this POD up. So Osman II would have to make war against Poland-Lithuania? Or didn't he know enough about European geography?
Click to expand...

Well he did in OTL, and he would in TTL because the Dnieper Cossacks are Polish vassals. And he knew more about early 17th century European political geography than some posters here. Muscovy has nothing to do with this.
 

Abdul Hadi Pasha

Banned
Osman II would have been 16 in 1621, so I wouldn't rate his chances as being particularly high.

You would have to wonder what effect an Ottoman army streaming to the Baltic would have had on the Thirty Years War - you might have seen some interesting combinations in that case.

Logistically this doesn't seem possible. It takes most of the campaign season just to get an army from Istanbul to the border - flying off to the Baltic and back would mean the Sultan would have to winter somewhere really wintery, and I doubt an Ottoman force would be adequately prepared.

Osman would probably be deposed if he seriously contemplated it.
 

Earling

Are not most Cossacks significantly south of the Baltic though?

It seems to make more sense to torch Lvov or Kiev rather than pushing all the way to Riga.

A force much smaller than an army risks being surrounded and cut to peices if they are just going to try and "raid" the Baltic. Its rather a long way to travel through hostile territory. Isn't it the equivelent of Cossacks giving Varna a miss and riding on to Thessaloniki?

Further more how advanced is Sweden's movement into the Baltic by 1620? Was that largely a concequence of the 30 years war or were they there earlier?
 

Dr Pervez Hoodbhoy

Banned
Earling said:
Are not most Cossacks significantly south of the Baltic though?

It seems to make more sense to torch Lvov or Kiev rather than pushing all the way to Riga.

A force much smaller than an army risks being surrounded and cut to peices if they are just going to try and "raid" the Baltic. Its rather a long way to travel through hostile territory. Isn't it the equivelent of Cossacks giving Varna a miss and riding on to Thessaloniki?
Click to expand...

Those Cossacks were Polish vassals, so the idea is to punish the Poles for allowing the Cossacks to raid Varna.

Further more how advanced is Sweden's movement into the Baltic by 1620? Was that largely a concequence of the 30 years war or were they there earlier?
Click to expand...

In 1620 the Swedes only had Estonia on the south shore. And that's only the north of present-day Estonia, not counting the Danish islands and the Polish south. In OTL they were set to make substanial gains a few years later, however.
 

Iñaki

The Holy Roman Empire (well in this case more referring to the Austrian Habsburgs) after his victory in the White Mountain could focus instead of in continuing the war in Germany, in stopping the ottomans.

And the protestant princes of Germany? They could agree in a truce with the emperor Ferdinand, at least until the ottomans could be defeated?
 

M79

1610 - Ottomans make a peace deal with Poland-Lithuania and seal it with a marriage pact, Osman marries a Polish bride in Gdansk

or

1610 - Ottomans sign accord with Poland-Lithuania and Osman spends time with their cavalry forces near the Baltic
 

Douglas

I'm surprised that no one has pointed out that it would be ridiculous for the Sultan to water his horses in the Baltic, seeing as the water is salty. :)
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Top
Top