AH Challenge: Holy Roman Empire of the French and German Nations

[Rekjavik]

You challenge, should you accept it, is to create a Holy Roman Empire that covers both France, Germany and everything in between as its core with no PoD before the death of Charlemagne in 814.

The actual function and constituents of the Empire itself is down to you. You can have the HRE act as a dual monarchy of a Kingdom of France and a Kingdom of Germany. You could have the entire area Balkanized, like Germany was IOTL. You could even have the HRE as one country, spanning the entire area.

What can you think of?

 

[minifidel]

A French king is elected as HRE early on, bringing the entire Kingdom of France into the HRE.

 

[rcduggan]

Here is the POD I used in my Khazar TL - although there it didn't lead to a reunified HRE, but it definitely could have.

The POD itself is that Lothair II of Lotharingia does not die in 869 - for whatever reason he decides not to lodge in Piacenza, so does not catch a fever and die. By 872, Lothair has succeeded in convincing Pope Adrian II to legitimize his marriage to his mistress Waldrada. A secondary effect is that their son Hugh is now a legitimate heir. Louis II of Italy dies AIOTL in 875, and Lothair inherits Italy. He has thus reunited the Middle Frankish kingdom of his father.

In the ensuing decades, East Francia is divided between Louis the German's three sons, and all of them die without sons AIOTL. Lothair is invited to be crowned King of East Francia (as happened in OTL with Charles the Fat). West Francia survives for longer under a continuous series of Carolingian monarchs, but after Carloman II dies in 884* Lothair is invited to become King of West Francia.

He thus has reunited the entire Carolingian Empire (as Charles the Fat did AIOTL by the 880s), but unlike that Charles, Lothair has a son. Hugh will become Holy Roman Emperor. ITTL as the Normans / Vikings will continue to ravage northern Europe, the empire will decline. Eventually it will fall, but for a century at least it will fulfill the OP's requirements.


*note that this is not what happened in my TL, only the parts concerning Lothair, Hugh, and Louis did. The rest is for the OP.

 

[fhaessig]

Mmmmm

For a couple late PoDs..

1) WI the HAbsurgs did not kick Alsace out of the HRE? OTL, when Louis XIV got the habsbourg rights transfered in Alsace to him, the Habsbourg gave him more than he asked for, in effect, cutting Alsace out of the HRE, for fear that Louis could become elective to the office of emperor as a prince of German lands ( and wealthy enough to bribe the electors ). WHat if Alsace is kept as part of the HRE, under Bourbon suzerainty, as Louis intended and the Habsourg fears are realised? Louis gets habsbourg rights and becomes a model german prince for a few years ( exemple : respects diet decisions on his conflicts with Strasbourg - OTL, the diet refused to rule, saying Strasbourg had to appeal to the french king, even if if was a free imperial town -). Then when the next election come, the bourbon candidate is voted in instead of the habsbourg one, as a mix of diplomacy, heafty bribes and not so veiled military threats trumps tradition and legitimacy. Repeat a couple time and add french kings trying to expend the power of their office. Then the revolution comes.....

2) latest possible PoD : What if, instead of disovling the HRE, the title of emperor is transfered to Napoleon. OTL, HRE was dissolved by the emperor for fear that Napoleon would claim the title as prize of war ( and refusing to let such a prestigious title fall to such a parvenu ). What if he hadn't and Napoleon had claimed the title, forcing the electors to vote him in? He would have tried some administrative reforms on the models of what he did in France. What would be the effects of this?

 

[Legiazus]

I think the POD would have to be around the 800's or 900's. At this point, the Frankish territories had still not developed enough national identity to define themselves as French or Germans, they were just beginning. A monarch being sitting on the thrones of West Francia, Lotharingia and East Francia simultaneously before the East becomes the sole HRE and establishing a stable dynasty is my best guess.

 

[HistorianofAlt]

I think the POD would have to be around the 800's or 900's. At this point, the Frankish territories had still not developed enough national identity to define themselves as French or Germans, they were just beginning. A monarch being sitting on the thrones of West Francia, Lotharingia and East Francia simultaneously before the East becomes the sole HRE and establishing a stable dynasty is my best guess.

This is definitely the best period for keeping Carolinian Empire together. One possibility is that Emperor Louis only has one surviving heir like his father Charlemagne before him. Louis heir could then, if he had more than one son, decide to give the empire to only one claiming that the Imperial Crown was not dividable.

The real problem is that Frankish custom of evenly dividing a man's possessions among all his heirs. That's why the Franks were locked in civil wars every 10 to fifteen years.

 

[fhaessig]

I think the POD would have to be around the 800's or 900's.

Yes, that's the easiest one.

Let's say adalberon succeeds and the successor to Hugues Capet is not his son. The capetian dinasty is stillborn and, as Adalberon wanted, the proto-french kingship is very weak and obviously junior to the imperial title. This continues for a few time, with imperial symps making sure that no noble familly gets the throne twice in a run. In time, it becomes obvious that approval from the empror is needed for kingship and a pretender swears fealty to the emperor in exchange for his support. This continue and in time, the french kings are considered the second title in the empire.

 

[Wolfhound]

Mmmmm


2) latest possible PoD : What if, instead of disovling the HRE, the title of emperor is transfered to Napoleon. OTL, HRE was dissolved by the emperor for fear that Napoleon would claim the title as prize of war ( and refusing to let such a prestigious title fall to such a parvenu ). What if he hadn't and Napoleon had claimed the title, forcing the electors to vote him in? He would have tried some administrative reforms on the models of what he did in France. What would be the effects of this?

I like this a lot, get Napolean less interested in France as a nation (conceptually speaking), and give him an unhealthy interest in the Roman Empire, and you have Nappy ruling over France, Germany and Italy/Northern Italy as HRE.

 

[rcduggan]

I think the POD would have to be around the 800's or 900's. At this point, the Frankish territories had still not developed enough national identity to define themselves as French or Germans, they were just beginning. A monarch being sitting on the thrones of West Francia, Lotharingia and East Francia simultaneously before the East becomes the sole HRE and establishing a stable dynasty is my best guess.

That is almost exactly what I postulated two posts above yours.

2) latest possible PoD : What if, instead of disovling the HRE, the title of emperor is transfered to Napoleon.

Oddly enough, while running this morning I thought of that exact POD. (I know, what does it say about me that I brainstorm alternate history while running? )
I think this one could actually work. Napoleon could organize some sort of neo-Carolingian empire of France, Italy, and Germany. (With him as the king of all three, of course.)

 

[Legiazus]

That is almost exactly what I postulated two posts above yours. )

Oops, you're right Might have read through a teeny weeny bit too fast.

Another thing I've come to think of; There seems to be two versions a reunited HRE going. The one rcduggan provided and the likes and the rather cool Napoleon idea. My thought is, an early POD would probably establish at least some resemblance of overarching identity for the Franks/Germans, a "Holy Roman" identity and culture, if you will.

A later POD, on the other hand, might create more of Habsburg feeling, with a single monarch ruling over several people, ala the Polish-Lithuanian Commonwealth and Austria-Hungary. They are still distinct people, but form one state.

 

[rcduggan]

Another thing I've come to think of; There seems to be two versions a reunited HRE going. The one rcduggan provided and the likes and the rather cool Napoleon idea. My thought is, an early POD would probably establish at least some resemblance of overarching identity for the Franks/Germans, a "Holy Roman" identity and culture, if you will.

This actually happened in OTL, in the late ninth century. There's an example I've given multiple times before: say, a merchant living in Paris in 884. He would perceive himself primarily as a Frank, then as a Neustrian (there was not much of a West Frankish / French identity this early on), and finally as a Parisian. A similar belief could be found throughout the empire - a large amount of upper class was united in their perception of being "Frankish." Of course the lower classes may not have, but then again most of them never left their village or feudal plot of land.

But if the empire survives another century, the idea would become entrenched throughout Francia.

A later POD, on the other hand, might create more of Habsburg feeling, with a single monarch ruling over several people, ala the Polish-Lithuanian Commonwealth and Austria-Hungary. They are still distinct people, but form one state.

As time progresses, ethnic identities are created and reinforced. By Napoleon's time a unified identity is basically impossible. The French Revolution led to the creation of nationalism, and in the end of TTL that would be France's undoing.

 

[Legiazus]

As time progresses, ethnic identities are created and reinforced. By Napoleon's time a unified identity is basically impossible.

My point exactly! That was I meant by giving Austria-Hungary as an example - these two peoples were one monarch, but even the Habsburgs didn't bother trying to convince them they were one people, because it was impossible. I agree with everything you said there.

And very nice illustrative story, too I'll remember that one.

 

[Umbric Man]

Oddly enough, while running this morning I thought of that exact POD. (I know, what does it say about me that I brainstorm alternate history while running? )

Quite a good bit-I do the same.