Chris Oakley
Banned
Maybe this is straying into ASB territory a bit, but...let's see if any of y'all can figure out a way to get Japan involved in the American Civil War.
AH Challenge:Bring Japan into the ACW
- Thread starter Chris Oakley
- Start date
Japanese immigrants brought into the US for physical labor band together and form an ethnic military regiment that fights for the union in the western theater?
NapoleonXIV
Banned
A wealthy abolitionist who was with Perry recalls the daimyo he befriended, and how he offered the services of a village of ninja, if they were ever needed in his quest to end slavery.
But you mean the whole of Japan, right?
Wasn't Japan having a CW of their own at this time? WI at the end of the ACW one or another of the great Daimyo offers ships, asylum and money to one or another defeated Southern Army in exchange for their help against (or for) the Tokugawa? Or maybe the Tokugawa makes the offer.
One of the things that enabled Japan to modernise so fast was that the enforced peace of the Edo period had allowed a really great increase in capitalism and Japan was actually a fairly wealthy nation at this time. So hiring a huge mercernary army and even the ships needed to transport it probably could have been afforded, and might have seemed just the thing to a desperate shogun.
But you mean the whole of Japan, right?
Wasn't Japan having a CW of their own at this time? WI at the end of the ACW one or another of the great Daimyo offers ships, asylum and money to one or another defeated Southern Army in exchange for their help against (or for) the Tokugawa? Or maybe the Tokugawa makes the offer.
One of the things that enabled Japan to modernise so fast was that the enforced peace of the Edo period had allowed a really great increase in capitalism and Japan was actually a fairly wealthy nation at this time. So hiring a huge mercernary army and even the ships needed to transport it probably could have been afforded, and might have seemed just the thing to a desperate shogun.
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How far back can we go? Does the divergance point have to be in the mid-1800s?
Lets say the first Tokugawa Shogun decided not to close off all but Nagasaki to foreigners...
There is another fairly reasonable possibility. Matthew Perry, the naval officer who opened up Japan, proposed that the US annex the isle of Formosa (Taiwan) as a base for trade in the Area in 1854. This was only a decade after the British annexed Hong Kong as a base for trade in the area. Congress turned him down in real life, wishing no 'imperialism'. But what if they had said yes? The wealth of Japan and China would have made an American Formosa a huge trading entrepot. This wouldn't even anger the British too much, as Americans couldn't trade in British ports anyways (Acts of trade and navigation). Now this is only a decade before the Civil War, but it would have meant a huge increase in the US Asian trade and thus a much quicker integration, immigration, etc. between Japan and the US. Its not really possible for Japan as a single country to get involved, the Meiji restoration that led to the Edo period took until after the Civil War ended. But the trade with Japan would have been influential. For one thing, the Northern big shipping firms would have had more ships and the US navy would be bigger to protect this new possession and trade (which is of course why Perry proposed it). So maybe the blockade of the South would have been effective sooner. Or the regular army had to increase its size to garrison Formosa and a few other such ports in the Pacific. Maybe a colonel named Lee is in command of one such, hmm? Indirect stuff like that.
Lets say the first Tokugawa Shogun decided not to close off all but Nagasaki to foreigners...
There is another fairly reasonable possibility. Matthew Perry, the naval officer who opened up Japan, proposed that the US annex the isle of Formosa (Taiwan) as a base for trade in the Area in 1854. This was only a decade after the British annexed Hong Kong as a base for trade in the area. Congress turned him down in real life, wishing no 'imperialism'. But what if they had said yes? The wealth of Japan and China would have made an American Formosa a huge trading entrepot. This wouldn't even anger the British too much, as Americans couldn't trade in British ports anyways (Acts of trade and navigation). Now this is only a decade before the Civil War, but it would have meant a huge increase in the US Asian trade and thus a much quicker integration, immigration, etc. between Japan and the US. Its not really possible for Japan as a single country to get involved, the Meiji restoration that led to the Edo period took until after the Civil War ended. But the trade with Japan would have been influential. For one thing, the Northern big shipping firms would have had more ships and the US navy would be bigger to protect this new possession and trade (which is of course why Perry proposed it). So maybe the blockade of the South would have been effective sooner. Or the regular army had to increase its size to garrison Formosa and a few other such ports in the Pacific. Maybe a colonel named Lee is in command of one such, hmm? Indirect stuff like that.
This is a problem. The first Japanese immigrants didn't arrive until 1869, after the ACW, so any scenario involving Japanese migrants or laborers would have to include earlier migration.
Personally, I think the most likely scenario is Southern Commerce raiders attacking US interests near Japan accidently attack Japanese interests, and as a result Japan declares war, and provides a token force to serve in the West.
Personally, I think the most likely scenario is Southern Commerce raiders attacking US interests near Japan accidently attack Japanese interests, and as a result Japan declares war, and provides a token force to serve in the West.
The only it's logical with a PoD in the middle of the 1800s is if you push the civil war back about twenty or thirty years. In which case it gets incredibly easy. Have the US (maybe because of the stronger influence of Southern expansionism ) take Hawaii by this time so Japan, in an expansionist mode, agrees to help the CSA (or whatever the South calls itself) in exchange for some cash and or Union land. The South will probably be much weaker in this TL and Union much stronger so the War against the South ends quickly and a rejuvenated and angry US moves on to crush Japan at sea, retakes Hawaii and whatever pieces of the West Coast Japan graped (it is a possibility) and blockades and bombards enough Japanese ports so they get the idea.
If its in earlier PoD just have the Dutch (or Spanish, English, French, Portuguese, whoever) force Japan open in the 1700s, trade extensively, but not colonize or divide like China. By the time the Civil War comes around (it would be convent for it to happen earlier in fact, but after the Mexican-American War), if things are right, a land-hungry Japan might start eying underpopulated California and Oregon Territory which the US will be stretched to defend (especially without railroads.)
If its in earlier PoD just have the Dutch (or Spanish, English, French, Portuguese, whoever) force Japan open in the 1700s, trade extensively, but not colonize or divide like China. By the time the Civil War comes around (it would be convent for it to happen earlier in fact, but after the Mexican-American War), if things are right, a land-hungry Japan might start eying underpopulated California and Oregon Territory which the US will be stretched to defend (especially without railroads.)
Jasen777
Donor
The Union would not want even a token Japanese force because it'd be a propaganda victory for the Confederacy.
Japan might not do it because the Union wanted it, they might be driven by internal politics. in other words, the US gets the help whether it wants it or not.
You guys are missing the point. Before 1869, there was no single sovereign state identified as Japan, so it couldn't intervene in anything. It was going through a period of civil war. There was a boy Tokugawa Shogun ruling most of the country in the name of the Emperor, but he was weak and there were plenty of other daimyos vying for control. Also there was a strong movement to replace the Shogun with a central government actually headed by the Emperor. Also, no Westerner had ever been outside of an enclave in the port of Nagasaki and a small enclave near Edo/Tokyo before the Civil War. Japan, and Japanese, were completely unknown in the US and vice versa, so why would either travel thousands of miles out of their way to fight in a war they did not understand? And they had no firearms, no steam powered ships, no deep sea vessels of any kind until the late 1800s.
Solomaxwell6
Banned
Firearms started having widespread use in Japan at the Battle of Nagashino in the late 1500s, with smaller usage before that. They definately had them in the 1800s.
NapoleonXIV
Banned
Practically all of the firearms they had in the 1600's were voluntarily turned in to make a giant Buddha statue in the early Edo. What was left were matchlock antiques, handed down as family heirlooms. OTOH one major problem of modernisation was that opening the country would allow the Daimyo access to Western gunpowder, which was much, much better than the Tokugawa gunpowder.
I have also read that the militias of either/or Satsuma and Choshu had extensive contact with the West and even wore Western style uniforms before 1855, tho I've never heard anything about them having modern arms.
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NapoleonXIV
Banned
Japan was a unitary state at this time, though not having formal relations with most Westen states. The daimyo in the JCW were fractious but they never seceded. This had been the main purpose of the Sakoku, to break the power of the daimyo while still keeping them as governing/administative units
The movement to replace the Shogun was in fact led by the most independent of the Daimyo, Satsuma and Choshu, and became the new Japan.
The Tokugawa leaders were not completely unaware of the West. More than one counselor had tried to advise them of the West's growing power before Perry. While their response was often to kill the messenger, there were also ongoing efforts to see how much modernisation could be introduced without threatening their own arrangements.
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David S Poepoe
Banned
International Army
How about we have the Union establish a Foreign Corps, similar to the French Foreign Legion? It will be lead by Garibaldi and will be most Japanese samurai and an elephant corps provided by the King of Siam?
Originally Posted by Jasen777
The Union would not want even a token Japanese force because it'd be a propaganda victory for the Confederacy.
That is entirely true. To elaborate for those that can't figure it out, the inclusion of 'foreign troops' would be bad for Lincoln since he opens up the possibility that the Confederacy may appeal for foreign assistance. Such a turn gives some legitimacy to the Richmond Government as a government of a seperate nation. The war is no longer a domestic rebellion.
How about we have the Union establish a Foreign Corps, similar to the French Foreign Legion? It will be lead by Garibaldi and will be most Japanese samurai and an elephant corps provided by the King of Siam?
Originally Posted by Jasen777
The Union would not want even a token Japanese force because it'd be a propaganda victory for the Confederacy.
That is entirely true. To elaborate for those that can't figure it out, the inclusion of 'foreign troops' would be bad for Lincoln since he opens up the possibility that the Confederacy may appeal for foreign assistance. Such a turn gives some legitimacy to the Richmond Government as a government of a seperate nation. The war is no longer a domestic rebellion.
Japan sends an ambassador to United States, who travels via California. On his way to Washington he gets killed by Confederate troopers (or bandits using Confederate uniforms) - but some of his staff manages to get back to Japan. Furious Japanese send a regiment - not to take part in the ACW, but to punish the murderers. Along with them comes a team of ninjas, who quietly eliminate Robert E. Lee. Without him ACW ends quicker.
Silly, isn't it?
Silly, isn't it?
Jasen777
Donor
Yes, using foreign troops in a civil war (even if only in a token way) often goes over very badly. It would drive more fence sitters to the Confederate side, it would give the South a point in the game for the moral high ground, and the South would be more galvanized in resistance.
For example, the use of German mercenaries in the American Revolution was a propaganda victory for the American cause and no doubt drove alot of fence sitters to their side.