AH Challenge: 1966 - Germany is extremely powerful and flourishing

Okay, it's the year 1966. The POD shall not be prior to 1871.

Germany is a free and relatively liberal nation, no Nazis, no Communists, and the Kaiser is merely a representative figure by now.
Germany is at least as big as it was in 1914.
Germany still has oversea-colonies.
Germany is the biggest economic power in the world.
Germany was the first nation to develop nuclear weapons.
Germany was the first nation to launch a space-programm and in 1966 two Germans are the first men on the moon.
 
Completely far fetched but how about in 1914 the workers of the world put international socialism and brotherhood ahead of petty nationalism and WW1 stopped almost as soon as it started. No WW1 and a consequent peaceful transition to social democracy may have brought about some of these changes.

Not so sure the scientific developments would have come about as fast as in OTL though - both world wars helped that side of things. Conversely, who knows how many potential scientists, inventors etc, died in the trenches?
 

Xen

Banned
Hitler dies in a gas attack at the end of World War I with no real major change until the 1930's, with out his leadership and charisma the Nazi Party is merely a pathetic tiny party that shouts out ignorant rhetoric. Those that followed Hitlers lead see the Nationalist Party as the best hope to keep the Communists and Socialists from taking power. Kaiser Wilhelm's grandson takes the throne as a figurehead monarch.

Germany begins a massive military build up in the 1930's and 1940's to deter the Soviet Union from incursions into Eastern Europe. A McCarthyism anti-Communist operation destroys the Communist Party, but ends before it can destroy the Democratic Socialist Party. Hoping to avoid another repeat of the First World War, Albert Einstein and other German scientists develop the Atomic Bomb in 1944, it doesnt take long before France, Britain, and the United States also develop the bomb. The Soviets develop theirs in the 1950s.

Germany is the first country to place a satellite in orbit in 1951, the first to put a man into space in 1954 and twelve years later land a man on the moon. Germany's industry is built up around its military, and has capitalized on selling its technology in the civilian market.
 
Xen,

Good scenario, but having Germany as big as it was in 1914 requires at least a draw in WWI. Perhaps some sort of failed Communist stuff leads to a status quo ante in the West as the Powers fear upheaval and decide to end it?

Another scenario could be that WWI is avoided altogether and the Social Democratic Party continues to make inroads into the power of the Kaiser, ultimately making the country a true constitutional monarchy instead of a semi-authoritarian thing like it was in OTL.
 
How about this.

January 2, 1871, on the eve of his gretest accomplishmnet, Otto Von Bismark dies of a massive coronary. Without his guiding strength, Prussia is unable to immediately form the Empire when Catholic Bavaria balks.

However, the German speaking peopples realize that if they are to succeed and thrive, they will need to join, so all parties go back to the drawing table, and using the US Constitution as a model, form the Second German Reich, but instead of a strong Prussia serving as the center core, a more representative government forms, with a slightly weaker Kaiser.
 

Redbeard

Banned
The French panic in 1914 and the war in the west is over almost before it began. Next Russia is thoroughly thrashed until she collapses in 1915 and falls into disorder, chaos, revolution and starvation.

GB and Germany make peace and split the French colonies between them. In Germany the Socialdemocrats form goverment after a general strike and in a few years implement important poltical and economical reforms, but in general keep the system and a strong army.

GB tries to forget about Europe and focus on the Empire instead. This has them collide with the Americans in 1922, and over the next eight years the British and Americans fight a mainly naval war that totally ruins the economy of both countries. The war ends in 1930 with GB getting back Canada and USA Panama and her Caribbean possesions.

Both nations are happy with peace at last, but soon finds out that in the meantime Germany has taken over all interesting markets...

Regards

Steffen Redbeard
 
Norman,

That's actually a good scenario right there. Bismarck's mindset was rather feudal--he was a vassal of the Hohenzollern king and thus had to help his overlord out, so he made sure that the Kaiser was in the driver's seat, leading to various problems later.
 
Matt Quinn said:
Norman,

That's actually a good scenario right there. Bismarck's mindset was rather feudal--he was a vassal of the Hohenzollern king and thus had to help his overlord out, so he made sure that the Kaiser was in the driver's seat, leading to various problems later.

The real problem then comes, how does an expanded germany get overseas possessions? I'm thinking that if the reich is less militantly germanic, maybe the Netherlands seeks association, and brings its colonial possession in with it?

Since a lot of these are in the Pacific, this would bring German and Japan against each other.
 
The catch, for me, is the

"biggest economic power." It's very difficult to tell a story where German GDP matches the US without so much conquest as to put the liberal society part in doubt. You could define economic power differently -- relying on trade and overseas investment -- but a 1966 Germany at least the size of 1914 Germany with colonies doesn't have as much incentive to be that kind of power.
 

Grey Wolf

Donor
Kaiser said:
Okay, it's the year 1966. The POD shall not be prior to 1871.

Germany is a free and relatively liberal nation, no Nazis, no Communists, and the Kaiser is merely a representative figure by now.
Germany is at least as big as it was in 1914.
Germany still has oversea-colonies.
Germany is the biggest economic power in the world.
Germany was the first nation to develop nuclear weapons.
Germany was the first nation to launch a space-programm and in 1966 two Germans are the first men on the moon.


Well, in OTL 1914 the SPD were growing in strength, at the next election they may have been deserving of power, at the one after that have taken it

How about no Franz Ferdinand assassination, but a 1920 Russo-Ottoman war that although it drags other powers in doesn't end up with a war on the scale of the Great War

Forgotten why I said that

Fuck...
Grey Wolf
 
How about this. Pre WW1 germany makes an alliance with britain. When the fighting starts, germany & austria hungary vs. france and russia, and serbia britain joins in with germany.
Germany also sends zimmerman telegram to mexico, and makes an alliance with them. The US eventually find out about this and along with submarine warfare, it makes them declare on germany and great britain. Trench warfare starts on all of the US borders in north america, and the US navy is beaten by the royal fleet.
By 1917 the consists of Italy, turkey, britain, germany, austria-hungary, mexico and japan on one side, and france, belgium, russia, serbia and the US on the other side. The war ends in 1920 with germany victorious.
Germany, austria, bulgaria, the ottamans, and italy form an economic union, and force the defeated french, belgians, and serbians to join. Soon afterwords the netherlands, denmark romania, norway and sweden are pressured into joining along with the newly independant nations carved out of russia: poland, finland, lithuania, latvia, estonia, belarus, ukraine, moldova, georgia, armenia and azerbaijan. Germany and britain split the french colonial empire.
The united states was economically ruined by the war because every border was a battle ground and the combined german and british navies were blockading their ports. Britain takes alaska, hawaii, the phillipines and puerto rico from the US.
Russia was in ruins at the end of the war, but germany propped up the czars against the revolution, in exchange for resources and an alliance.
With britain and germany dominant in the post war world they begin a struggle similar to the cold war, with the british empire against the german economic union.
The united states struggles with economic hardship after the war and a far right wing party comes to power in the mid thirties. They advocate US expansion and for the united states to replace germany and britain as the dominant world power.
Over time germany grew more and more democratic, so that by the late thirties the kaiser was just a figurehead.
Germany and britain eventually go to war in 1939 after a series of border conflicts between german namibia and british south africa. The war is a stalemate at first, because the boarders between each side are far from the central nation and each country fears attack on the homeland if they shift troops to the border. This goes on until 1941 when facsist america declares war on britain and invades canada. This tips the balance in favor of germany because britain to shift troops from elsewhere to defend canada. germany and the US gain ground until 1944 when the german government recieves a message from britain asking for an alliance against the US, which has conquered all of the territory north of it's border, as well as the british possesions in the caribean.
Germany wavers, but when britain show them evidence of US atrocities in the war germany agrees. The treaty is very in favor of germany, making britain a member of the german economic union, and giving germany many colonial gains. From 1944 to 1950 The US desperatley fights against the vastly superior forces of germany, britain, and all of their allies. On august 12, 1950, germany drops the atomic bomb on New York the City, threatening more destruction if the US does not give up.
The US surrenders, giving back all territory it took in the war, and being forced to allow german occupiers in the country. Most of the US has by this time been devestated by massive bombing raids, and it is reeling from the huge losses it suffered during the war.
Germany is now the sole superpower, with britain and the US defeated, and much of the world either directly controlled by it or in an alliance. Germany is very prosperous, and builds up a space program in order to show its superiority.
 
Operation Unicorn

This could be what comes out of my Operation Unicorn TL over at
http://p209.ezboard.com/falternatehistoryfictoryfrm7

I know what what happens in the next 2-3 years and have some vague preliminary thoughts out to about a decade, but I've never thought it through beyond that.

POD: Hipper in mid-August 1914 (before Heligoland Bight) decides to position some of the HSF battleships outside the Jade Bar.
 
What if the Germans somehow form an alliance with Russia in the 1890s? Or, they seem more friendly to GB(possibly by not attemping a naval arms race)? Perhaps Britain and France go at it in the early 20th century......no Entente as we know it.
 
space program

Yossarian said:
...
Germany is now the sole superpower, with britain and the US defeated, and much of the world either directly controlled by it or in an alliance. Germany is very prosperous, and builds up a space program in order to show its superiority.

Hmmmm, may be not. With no real enemies the Geman Union will have no incentive to deveope a scientifically-oriented space program. Yes, a trans-oceanic war will force them to develope rocket armament and I can see the first man in space as a spin-off from that (ias it happened in OTL). However, the Moon landing is altoghether a different story.

A reason to go to the Moon can be so set up there a nuclear base - much like in Alien Stelle's "Tranquility Alternative". This is a perfect retaliatory strike weapon. But then the final part of your time-line will have to be re-worked.

Weap, it is hard to go to the Moon with the technology level of the 60-70's, even if you speed it up. :(
 
Why not having the Kaiser die early (an assassination, or a freak accident. Or even a bad flu with complications)? The best would be before the turn of the century, so there is no navy race with UK. Germany and UK stay friendly, and are opposed to the Russo-French entente. There is no real need for Germany to go and conquer. AH has internal problems, and sooner or later the centrifugal forces will destroy the Empire. Same with Russia, who can very well implode (maybe even in 1905, after the Russo-Japanese war). Germany extends its sphere of economical influence to Poland, Ukraine, Bohemia and Austria. If Russia and France challenge the German-British alliance, they get cut to size very quickly, even if they are supported by AH (and this could be a way for Germany to get larger colonies, carving up the French overseas empire). The USA remain isolationists, and mostly concerned with Central and South America. This world is likely to be much less bloody than ours, even with a dominant Germany (isn't it ironic?).
When you get to the decolonisation, Germany is in a mch better position than UK, and so is the dominant power.
 
For my timeline, germany develops rocket tech in war against US. Germany goes to the moon not just for pure science, but also because there is an "american economic miracle, similar to the japanese one, where the US is very pacifistic and recovering from the disasterous war. Although it's GDP is only a fraction of germany's, germany wants to show them who's boss, by pulling off things like going to the moon, which the US is incapable of.
 
Kaiser said:
Okay, it's the year 1966. The POD shall not be prior to 1871.
Germany is a free and relatively liberal nation, no Nazis, no Communists, and the Kaiser is merely a representative figure by now.
Germany is at least as big as it was in 1914.

Germany is in something like this position in Jon Courtenay Grimwood's Ashraf Bey novels: one of the major powers in the world, still with the Kaiser on the throne in the 2040s. The PoD is that the 1914 War was settled by an American-mediated compromise peace in 1915.

He hasn't fleshed the timeline out - there's a Soviet Union, but how we get the Bolsheviks to power without a long WWI isn't clear - but basically, with no devastating WWI, you have no humiliated defeated Germany, hence no Nazis and no WWII, no territorial losses....
 
What was it Bismark said? "Only a fool learns from experience. A wise man learns from the experience of others and spares himself the pain." So one of us builds a time machine and gives him a history book of the last two hundred years...No, wait, that's on the ASB panel!

OK, Bismark dies before the union of the German states is carried out. The Federal german government makes the King of Prussia the Kaiser of the Germanies and gives him no power in the government except calling new elections when the parties can't form a government.
Without the Prussians to grab Alsace-Lorraine and demand a large reparations, the French get over their snit much faster. France becomes a socialist democracy, and Germany does not because the local areas set their own policy. Low taxes, a customs union, free immigration of anybody that speaks German, and the economic expansion has begun.
Germany does not participate in the scramble for colonies. They industrialise very quickly and become properous without the large army and navy expenditures. They set up local universities as a politically acceptable way to spend the customs duties from their customs union. That really starts industrialisation going because they are making unique products that are accepted into other countries.
The first major German industry is fixed nitrates. By 1900 the value of farmland has collapsed all over the world and Nigerian palm oil crops are rotting on the wharves of Abidjan. Synthetic rubber renders the Indonesian and Indochinese rubber plantations stillborn by 1905. Cloned high yield coffee and chocolate trees are proliferating all over the world, again trashing colonial attempts to develop plantations in the face of small holder efficiencies at intensive crop cultivation versus less skilled forced labor techniques.
Austria dumps the empire as it's younger age cohorts head for the bright lights of Hamburg and Essen. The peacefull villages slowly fill up with the native farmers as the urban German elite die off or immigrate. Eventually the Austrian government faces the facts. It is no longer an empire, but a collection of less educated, less prosperous, and less taxpaying peasants subsidized by Vienna and the rest of the German areas. Austria petitions for admission to the German customs union and is accepted.
Czechia and Slovenia also petition but are denied admission into the customs union. They form a loose Balkan federation against Russia, with an alliance with the German federation as a bulwark against conquest. After a short and bloody war against Turkey they defy Russian demands for the Straits and are backed up by Britain as well. Russia decides not to push it. Without the French alliance, the French loans, and the market for Russian wheat that is surplus because of the cheap nitrates out of Germany, they can't fight a war anyway.
Eventually the German federation buys some colonies of their own. They just wait until one of their competitors is in financial trouble and make an offer that is politically impossible to refuse. The colonies of Madagascar, Borneo, and New Guinea result. All are islands, all have minerals, timber, and tropical crops, and all are promptly developed for those resources. Since the Germans don't make the mistake of conscripting labor, importing workers, or seizing land, they face no rebellions. Small holders produce tropical crops, or work in the mines and other resource industries.
Later the Germans use their tecdnological lead to launch space satellites for commercial purposes. The first atomic powered expedition to the moons of Mars takes place twenty years later. It is no grandstanding politcal stunt, but a logical progression of development to low delta vee resources for fuel and construction materials. The actual landings on the Moon and Mars take place much later.
 
Redbeard said:
The French panic in 1914 and the war in the west is over almost before it began. Next Russia is thoroughly thrashed until she collapses in 1915 and falls into disorder, chaos, revolution and starvation.
Rather tough PoD (for France and Russia, that is), but it would work very nicely, I'd say!

DMS said:
"biggest economic power." It's very difficult to tell a story where German GDP matches the US without so much conquest as to put the liberal society part in doubt. You could define economic power differently -- relying on trade and overseas investment -- but a 1966 Germany at least the size of 1914 Germany with colonies doesn't have as much incentive to be that kind of power.
Hmm, well, if you disregard the wars, you'll have a very different US, especially if Britain is still Ruler of the Waves... see fx Redbeard's post. Britain with her Empire would be hugely beneficial to the British economy and she would most likely be preoccupied with suppling the various part of it with manufactored goods, while the Germans produce for Europe (incl. beaten Russia) and the Tollverein it has become. The US however focuses on its domestic markeds and thus dosn't grow economically as in OTL. The Monroe Doctrine and US economical hedgemony would probably be challenged as Brazil, Argentine, Chile, the Caribeans and what not seek closer ties with the percieved big boys of Europe (Britain and Germany)...

Valio is right, though, a space programme whitout a strategic missiles arms race are going to be developed at a very slow pace...

Best regards and all!

- Mr.Bluenote.
 
I like wilikes idea of germany not going for colonies in first place. I think, having colonies increases latent chauvinism course of contact with indigenous people. A germany with less chauvinism is more likely to stay big.

But i go for a shorter WW1. The germans do surrender in 1916, after a uprise of the soldiers. This uprise was spontanous. It arose when the inhuman tactics of the Verdun-battle became clear.
No harsh conditions were made with the new democratic gouvernment. So germany has not the feeling of minority that should be overcame. The democratic Gouvernments of UK, France and Germany begin to work together. They fight Franko and avoid Mussolini to take power. A European Union appears.
German science was top-level in many diciplines at that time. If this could be exploited, and an WW2 avoided, than a wealthy Germany is very likely to exist around 1960.
I like the idea of all these jews still beeing german and proud of it.
 
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