a Valkyrie Rises Over Europe, a Alternate Story of the Cold War

You just had to do it didn't you. You just had to have a general president. You know what this means, don't you? We will all sucked in by MacArthur's all consuming ego! YOU'VE. BLOODY. WELL. DOOMED. ALL. MANKIND!:eek::p

MacArthur was calling to me, his siren call of egoism called to me, I just had to satisfy the ego's call and give it the Presidency, otherwise it would've consumed me whole and eat it into it's hive mind of egoism :p

Dirk_Pitt said:
Also I've got to agree on the Nazi's nuke program. Even the Soviets took till 1949 to get the nuke OTL.

I think the 1947 date is fine with the POD's I set back in the 30's to allow the Nazi nuke program to accomplish the overall end goal of enabling the Nazi's to have a Nuclear Arsenal, but of course it is just my opinion on the issue, whether they get it in '47 or '49 or '52 isn't going the effect the ultimate end result of them getting the Bomb, which is just going to happen, I just chose sooner rather then later.

Dirk_Pitt said:
Also what about proxy wars? It's not a cold war without proxy wars.

Oh Don't Worry, I have some ideas regarding future Proxy Wars between the Reich and the United States, President MacArthur and Führer Speer are going to be in for some interesting times

Dirk_Pitt said:
Edit: Also that pic of MacArthur is really disconcerting. It shall haunt my nightmares.


You're welcome :cool:;)
 
Nice work K,

I like that Speer took over after Hitler, he was a survivor in otl and I imagine he will be more khrushchev then Stalin. Still will be interesting with such a 'pragmatic' man in charge of the NAZIs and Mac in charge of the US.
 
...well, on the plus side, the decolonisation of Southeast Asia and sub-Saharan Africa should go a little more smoothly given that the Red Scare doesn't exist.

Right? :eek:
 
...well, on the plus side, the decolonisation of Southeast Asia and sub-Saharan Africa should go a little more smoothly given that the Red Scare doesn't exist.

Right? :eek:

I imagine we may see a 'Brown' or 'Black' scare instead. Depends how raciest the Nazis are.
 

Razgriz 2K9

Banned
I find it quite interesting this timeline. I have no experience on the concept of Nazi victory. (Beyond Darkest Hour's Fatherland mod.) But...I'm surprised Speer is continuing with the Germanic Reich project, given how unwieldy it is.
 
I imagine we may see a 'Brown' or 'Black' scare instead. Depends how raciest the Nazis are.

The Arab world had some National Socialist supporters, like the SSNP in Syria and Lebanon. A "Nazintern" there might be an interesting* development...

*RFK style
 
Nevertheless, Hitler's unexpected demise left a gaping hole within the Power Structure of the Reich, his final will and testament named Hermann Goring as Fuhrer and Joseph Goebbels as Chancellor, however other factions within the Government moved to challenge Goring and Goebbels for ultimate power, including Heinrich Himmler and the SS, as well as the Minister of Armaments, Albert Speer, who unexpected threw his hat into the ring, all of the various factions, the SS, Heer, and Luftwaffe fell into a Power Struggle over final control of the Reich, not unlike those seen in the Soviet Union, Goring was opposed by many due to concerns regarding his morphine usage and his ability to properly govern the Reich as a whole, while Himmler, despite being extremely effective and at his positions controlling the SS and Chief of German Police, had acquired many powerful enemies within the German High Command ever since the establishment of the Nazi regime in 1933, including most of the Conservative Wehrmacht General Staff, who hated Himmler personally and were afraid at the ever growing power base of the SS, they sought to stint the SS in the bud and stabilize their influence in German politics, while Goebbels on the other hand had made as many enemies as Himmler did, and was seen by many as a eccentric and outlandish individual, partly contributed from the rumors of various affairs that Goebbels had supposedly had, Goebbels was considered by most as a Official who had only remained due to his skill in running the Propaganda Ministry and due to his close relationship with Hitler, and with Hitler out of the way, many of Goebbels and Himmler's enemies saw it as their chance to eliminate the two main threats to their power base.
Korrey, you still need to work on breaking your unneccessarily long sentences down. All of the above is one sentence. Its waffling and rolls off too much.

A full stop means a change of Ideas. There are several points in the above sentence alone where I can see full stops working well.
 
Korrey, you still need to work on breaking your unneccessarily long sentences down. All of the above is one sentence. Its waffling and rolls off too much.

A full stop means a change of Ideas. There are several points in the above sentence alone where I can see full stops working well.

Nah... I don't think that he should change any more. I congratulate you on the changes you have made, KaiserK! And they were really necessary! But now, you don't need to change any more....

But CalBear, why are you out? Such a MacArthur-hater, or is that too implausible?
 

Dirk_Pitt

Banned
1] MacArthur was calling to me, his siren call of egoism called to me, I just had to satisfy the ego's call and give it the Presidency, otherwise it would've consumed me whole and eat it into it's hive mind of egoism :p



2] I think the 1947 date is fine with the POD's I set back in the 30's to allow the Nazi nuke program to accomplish the overall end goal of enabling the Nazi's to have a Nuclear Arsenal, but of course it is just my opinion on the issue, whether they get it in '47 or '49 or '52 isn't going the effect the ultimate end result of them getting the Bomb, which is just going to happen, I just chose sooner rather then later.



3] Oh Don't Worry, I have some ideas regarding future Proxy Wars between the Reich and the United States, President MacArthur and Führer Speer are going to be in for some interesting times




4] You're welcome :cool:;)


1] That tends to happen and I'm not a particular Dougie Mac hater. To be honest I've always wanted to see a MacArthur presidency, since I heard he did run a small campaign OTL.

2] Most any viable PoD in regards to a Nazi Nuke Program would lead to a world without Nazis as we know them(distrust of "Jewish" Science was a major factor plus the their persecutions that led to a exodus of Jewish Scientists). Even without these problems, plus others, OTL Soviets took 4 years longer than the US to come up with the bomb. That is significant.

But again, I'm a pretty tolerant fellow compared to some on AH.com. So long as it's a good story, I'll read it.

3] See below.

4] You are a vile human being you know that?:D

Nice work K,

I like that Speer took over after Hitler, he was a survivor in otl and I imagine he will be more khrushchev then Stalin. Still will be interesting with such a 'pragmatic' man in charge of the NAZIs and Mac in charge of the US.

I am of a mind that all we consider to be governance under the Nazis was from the view point of one man: Adolf Hitler. He let the backstabbing careerists have the field and they led to a very inefficient administration.

Perhaps Speer will do things differently?

I imagine we may see a 'Brown' or 'Black' scare instead. Depends how raciest the Nazis are.

I doubt it. Such things as Domino Theory, that came from the Red Scare, came about because there was a viable reason to think Communism would spread.

Communism was very much an internationalist and anti-imperialist ideology and easily grew in popularity in former colonies.

Fascism was very much a Nationalist and European ideology and I certainly can't see it being very popular in places where the Nazis effectively declared the natives sub-human(like Africa and Eastern Asia).

On a very similar note, I can't really see anywhere where there could be a Vietnam for the US(certainly for the Nazis, very easily). Vietnam only really happened because France under DeGaulle demanded that the US back them up. In this world I can easily see the US and Britain telling DeGaulle to bugger off(he wasn't very popular to begin with). DeGaulle, OTL, was only kept around because he was useful and there was a chance of Liberating Europe. With no chance of that no one's gonna give that little prick the time of day.

Besides, the Free French only represent a rebel faction against what is, by treaty, the legitimate government in France.

Fun fact: In OTL the US actually recognized Vichy France as the legitimate French government for a time. This led to cool relations between France and America post-war.

I also can't see Britain being a France analogue. Attlee is not DeGaulle, which is very much a positive:D.
 
Fascism was very much a Nationalist and European ideology and I certainly can't see it being very popular in places where the Nazis effectively declared the natives sub-human(like Africa and Eastern Asia).
As I said, the Arab world would be the closest thing to a "Nazintern" interest area, given their shared anti-Semitism. The SSNP (Syrian Social Nationalist Party) operated in Syria and Lebanon, which are bound to have new management since the French have been pwned.

South America might become a hotbed of proxy wars if Germany can meaningfully supply Argentina and Chile (maybe using "neutral" Spanish ships)?
 

Dirk_Pitt

Banned
As I said, the Arab world would be the closest thing to a "Nazintern" interest area, given their shared anti-Semitism. The SSNP (Syrian Social Nationalist Party) operated in Syria and Lebanon, which are bound to have new management since the French have been pwned.

South America might become a hotbed of proxy wars if Germany can meaningfully supply Argentina and Chile (maybe using "neutral" Spanish ships)?

Actually, until the foundation of Israel, Anti-Semitism wasn't much higher than the rest of the world.

But yeah, the Nazis certainly had a large support base in the Mid-east. It even led to the British occupation of Iraq during the war.
 
Actually, until the foundation of Israel, Anti-Semitism wasn't much higher than the rest of the world.

But yeah, the Nazis certainly had a large support base in the Mid-east. It even led to the British occupation of Iraq during the war.
I mean that was their (pretty much sole) ideological commonality, given that according to Nazi race hierarchy, Arabs weren't really much better than Jews (a factoid conveniently edited out of Arabic versions of Mein Kampf).

But yeah, basically what you said. :p
 
MacArthur as President- My problem is that from my knowledge of GOP internal politics in the 40s and early 50s, I do not think that MacArthur could beat Dewey. Dewey and his machine were very, very good at winning internal GOP contests (Beating FDR and Truman were another matter altogether). MacArthur was a novice at electoral politics going up against a seasoned professional and his machine. Unless MacArthur had someone more seasoned backing/guiding him (Like Ike had Dewey backing him in 52) I think Dewey would win such a contest.
 

CalBear

Moderator
Donor
Monthly Donor
Nah... I don't think that he should change any more. I congratulate you on the changes you have made, KaiserK! And they were really necessary! But now, you don't need to change any more....

But CalBear, why are you out? Such a MacArthur-hater, or is that too implausible?
Both actually. More of the former than the latter. The idea of him as POTUS literally makes me ill.
 
Nice work K,

I like that Speer took over after Hitler, he was a survivor in otl and I imagine he will be more khrushchev then Stalin. Still will be interesting with such a 'pragmatic' man in charge of the NAZIs and Mac in charge of the US.

Indeed, All very good points, Speer himself was certainly not as bad as the Austrian Corporal (well, no one was as bad as the Austrian Corporal, only Himmler came close to Adolf's level of insanity), and Speer certainly was one of the most pragmatic men within the Rogue's Gallery in Berlin, however he is also a bit of a blank slate, there's a lot of unknown about the Man, so it will be interesting to how Speer takes to his new job and how he guides the Reich in the coming years.

...well, on the plus side, the decolonisation of Southeast Asia and sub-Saharan Africa should go a little more smoothly given that the Red Scare doesn't exist.

Right? :eek:

Perhaps.

I imagine we may see a 'Brown' or 'Black' scare instead. Depends how raciest the Nazis are.

I do not believe that anything on the scale of the Red Scare will really occur, as the Germans are more concerned with securing Europe beyond anything else, doesn't mean the US doesn't have it's fears about the Reich as the Rivalry between the two intensifies.

I find it quite interesting this timeline. I have no experience on the concept of Nazi victory. (Beyond Darkest Hour's Fatherland mod.) But...I'm surprised Speer is continuing with the Germanic Reich project, given how unwieldy it is.

He is continuing with it even with his new position as leader of the Reich, but I think with Adolf out of the way, Speer will be able to construct the "Welthauptstadt Germania" construction project on a cut back, more stable and manageable scale without Hitler's constant interference and demands regarding the project

Has anything changed on the map, KaiserK?

Not yet, through a map update will come up soon.

The Arab world had some National Socialist supporters, like the SSNP in Syria and Lebanon. A "Nazintern" there might be an interesting* development...

*RFK style

Possibly, the Middle East is close to Europe and certainly within German interests, and certainly American and British interests as well.

1] That tends to happen and I'm not a particular Dougie Mac hater. To be honest I've always wanted to see a MacArthur presidency, since I heard he did run a small campaign OTL.

with MacArthur as President, things will certainly be interesting.


4] You are a vile human being you know that?:D

I know! :D


I am of a mind that all we consider to be governance under the Nazis was from the view point of one man: Adolf Hitler. He let the backstabbing careerists have the field and they led to a very inefficient administration.

Perhaps Speer will do things differently?

Perhaps, We do know for sure however, Speer certainly can't be as bad as Hitler.

I doubt it. Such things as Domino Theory, that came from the Red Scare, came about because there was a viable reason to think Communism would spread.

Communism was very much an internationalist and anti-imperialist ideology and easily grew in popularity in former colonies.

Fascism was very much a Nationalist and European ideology and I certainly can't see it being very popular in places where the Nazis effectively declared the natives sub-human(like Africa and Eastern Asia).

Indeed, there are very big and key differences which separate Fascism and Nazism from Communism, there's not going to be things similar to OTL because of these key differences, things like the Red Scare came about because of the very specific things, as well as a backer like McCarthy to drive it until full gear, you just can't replicate that to a entirely different ideology or a US with a entirely different mindset regarding the Nazis compared to the USSR.

On a very similar note, I can't really see anywhere where there could be a Vietnam for the US(certainly for the Nazis, very easily). Vietnam only really happened because France under DeGaulle demanded that the US back them up. In this world I can easily see the US and Britain telling DeGaulle to bugger off(he wasn't very popular to begin with). DeGaulle, OTL, was only kept around because he was useful and there was a chance of Liberating Europe. With no chance of that no one's gonna give that little prick the time of day.

Besides, the Free French only represent a rebel faction against what is, by treaty, the legitimate government in France.

Fun fact: In OTL the US actually recognized Vichy France as the legitimate French government for a time. This led to cool relations between France and America post-war.

I also can't see Britain being a France analogue. Attlee is not DeGaulle, which is very much a positive:D.[/QUOTE]

As I said, the Arab world would be the closest thing to a "Nazintern" interest area, given their shared anti-Semitism. The SSNP (Syrian Social Nationalist Party) operated in Syria and Lebanon, which are bound to have new management since the French have been pwned.

South America might become a hotbed of proxy wars if Germany can meaningfully supply Argentina and Chile (maybe using "neutral" Spanish ships)?

As for South America, there are certainly many possibilities regarding it, especially with nations sympathetic to Berlin and the Tripartite Pact such as Peron in Argentina and Chile, of course any Fascist activities in South America would be opposed by Washington, and very violently, it could be very interesting.

MacArthur as President- My problem is that from my knowledge of GOP internal politics in the 40s and early 50s, I do not think that MacArthur could beat Dewey. Dewey and his machine were very, very good at winning internal GOP contests (Beating FDR and Truman were another matter altogether). MacArthur was a novice at electoral politics going up against a seasoned professional and his machine. Unless MacArthur had someone more seasoned backing/guiding him (Like Ike had Dewey backing him in 52) I think Dewey would win such a contest.


Certainly, Dewey is hard to beat for the nomination, however here, with Eisenhower essentially a no name, those would've supported the General would likely flock to support MacArthur, Who is even more popular and a more of a celebrity then he was in our timeline, and MacArthur does have some minor political experience from being the Supreme Commander of Occupied Japan, even through that was under totally different circumstances.

I could see Taft possibly backing MacArthur as well after he dropped out of the race.

and of course, MacArthur winning the nomination doesn't necessarily mean he won it by a lot, it was likely a close vote at the Convention that Doug squeaked out.
 
Both actually. More of the former than the latter. The idea of him as POTUS literally makes me ill.

I completely agree on this; I'm quite sure MacArthur as President would be the end of the Republic.

Maybe on any Nazi bomb program delay it until the early 1950s? Maybe have it due to intelligence the Soviets sold the Germans? It gives it more plausibility, while still keeping this timeline at Maximum Grimdark, in a non-mocking way.

Props on the idea of Speer coming up on top - there's always an evil I, Claudius feel to Speer. Reprehensible accomplice of evil in many ways, but there's a distinct advantage of being the non-socipath/opium addict in a lot of political situations.
 
How about Harold Stassen as VP? If someone knocks MacArthur off, he'll finally get his cross-dimensional ambitions, and it'll be a net gain! :D
 
Props on the idea of Speer coming up on top - there's always an evil I, Claudius feel to Speer. Reprehensible accomplice of evil in many ways, but there's a distinct advantage of being the non-socipath/opium addict in a lot of political situations.

Thanks, I thought the idea of Speer coming out on top in the power struggle was a fairly original idea, I don't think anyone else has come up with the idea before, the interesting thing about Speer is while he's a well known member of Hitler's inner circle, he's also extremely ambiguous and a bit of a blank slate politically, we honestly do not have much information on Speer's actual personal political beliefs, thus making him a interesting choice due to the fact of how little we know about him, meaning I can kind of do with Speer as I please, and of course, there have already been enough Nazi Victory scenarios with grade A Variety Himmler/Goring/Bormann/Etc coming out on top, and as I looked at other members of Hitler's inner circle, Speer popped to be as a interesting alternate choice.

and plus I also illustrated in the update on the various reasons why guys like Himmler, Goebbels and Goring would and could lose out in a power struggle.
 
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