A truly United States of America

[JJohnson]

I was impressed by Big Tex's thread uniting the world into the US (for the historical research and nicely done maps ) as well as the thought going into many of the alternate timelines here, so I thought I'd try my hand at one. Please be kind, as this is my first alternate reality.

Key attributes:
*the USA encompasses the whole of the American continent
*the Republic of the Rio Grande and the Republic of the Yucatan were integrated after the independence of Mexico (Yucatan offered Sovereignty for foreign aid; here, USA takes the offer, giving it territory status; RORG General Canales got help from Texas and sympathetic Americans who assisted in this timeline)
*Canada was captured during the revolution, as were portions of the Caribbean
*Quasi-War with France ended with Caribbean islands in US possession
*Byzantine Empire buffered Arab expansion into Africa (or does Greece get this back after WWI?)
*Germany retained its 1871 borders, minus Alsace-Lorraine. (Perhaps Fascist France against Democratic Germany?)
*I'm debating keeping the Teutonic Knights as a more formidable force in this reality, as well as the Knights Templar. Would that be too much?

I'll post up a new world history later, as it's already 2am. Thoughts, suggestions, maps, and comments are all welcome.


Thanks,

James

 

[ColeMercury]

*the USA encompasses the whole of the American continent

North AND South?!

 

[JJohnson]

Timeline for United America

Yes, both North and South. Keep in mind this is simply a thought experiment, and not my own personal view. I love self-determination.

Rough outline:

982-1350 - Norse settlement of Greenland, Markland, Helluland, and Vinland
*Increasing cold in Greenland causes Norse to abandon it in favor of American settlements. These isolated towns preserve their language and religion, much as the isolation of Iceland also did.
*Norse push into Kievan Rus, Norsifying the popuulation, and bringing a stream of 'volunteers' to Markland.
*A steady trickle of men and women means the Marklanders could grow.
1300-1350 - Greenland - becomes abandoned due to cold. Most settlers relocate to America.
1492 - Columbus gets to the Americas
1500-1600 - settlers find Norse in the Americas in OTL Labrador (Markland), Quebec, and Nova Scotia (Vinland).
1775-1783 - American revolution, greatly aided by Norse in America, who are unused to foreign control. Having moved into Quebec along with the French, they aid the American independence movement as something close to their own Things/parliaments and ideals.
1783 - Treaty of Paris - the US holds all land to the Mississippi and going straight north, with claims beyond. France holds Louisiana, Spain and Portugal in South America.
1783-1812 - smarting from their losses in North America, Britain focuses on central and South America, bringing convicts and others for settlement and increasing the population. They ask for some allied assistance, bringing in Hessian and Prussian settlers as well.
1812-1814 - War of 1812 - US attacked by a vengeful British Empire, bringing most of the Americas with it. Patagonia and the remaining Caribbean British isles are traded to America with the peace settlement.
1845-1848 - Republic of Texas, Rio Grande, and Yucatan breakaway from Mexico and join USA.

That's what I have so far...I've got to go to work. I'm still figuring out how to bring the Caribbean into the US.

James

 

[Halcyon Dayz]

With a POD in the Tenth Century history of the 18th and 19th is NOT going to mimic our timeline.

No way.

 

[Goldstein]

JJohnson, you should (I mean, you MUST) consider learning what the butterfly effect is, before starting a timeline.

 

[JJohnson]

I'm not wedded to the Norse portion, but I'm familiar with the butterfly effect. Were the Norse to simply expand into the Americas, how could you see it affecting settlement of Canada? If there were a large enough settlement to last through the little Ice Age which killed off Greenland, they may be able to survive long enough in the new world for England and France to find them. The most important POD here is Canada joining the US, and one or more islands in the Caribbean joining in as a territory - but I'm interested in looking how more Europeans already on the continent would affect things.

James

 

[rcduggan]

Norse push into Kievan Rus, Norsifying the popuulation

At any time when the Vikings would be in a position to "push into Kievan Rus'," the state was Norse. As I said in the other thread, the Norse need to stay in the north. If they push south to Kiev, they will be assimilated unless there is a great deal more Viking settlers.

but I'm interested in looking how more Europeans already on the continent would affect things.

James

That would mean [almost] no American history would be the same as OTL.

 

[rewster]

I'm not wedded to the Norse portion, but I'm familiar with the butterfly effect. Were the Norse to simply expand into the Americas, how could you see it affecting settlement of Canada? If there were a large enough settlement to last through the little Ice Age which killed off Greenland, they may be able to survive long enough in the new world for England and France to find them. The most important POD here is Canada joining the US, and one or more islands in the Caribbean joining in as a territory - but I'm interested in looking how more Europeans already on the continent would affect things.

James

Yeah, if the Norse expanded into the Americas and managed a permanent settlement, knowledge of the Americas as continents would reach the rest of Europe hundreds of years early. Which means no Columbus, which means who knows who is exploring, it may not be the Spanish and Portuguese, so you are extremely unlikely to end up with anything like the United States and Canada.

 

[JJohnson]

Leaving the Norse out of America, and bringing POD to the Revolution, which islands would be likely to join America if they were to win or send an expedition? I'm not as well versed on the Caribbean in that time period.

So it's looking like this:
1775-1783 - American revolution, greatly aided by Norse in America, who are unused to foreign control. Having moved into Quebec along with the French, they aid the American independence movement as something close to their own Things/parliaments and ideals.
1783 - Treaty of Paris - the US holds all land to the Mississippi and going straight north, with claims beyond. France holds Louisiana, Spain and Portugal in South America.
1783-1812 - smarting from their losses in North America, Britain focuses on central and South America, bringing convicts and others for settlement and increasing the population. They ask for some allied assistance, bringing in Hessian and Prussian settlers as well.
1812-1814 - War of 1812 - US attacked by a vengeful British Empire, bringing most of the Americas with it. Patagonia and the remaining Caribbean British isles are traded to America with the peace settlement.
1845-1848 - Republic of Texas, Rio Grande, and Yucatan breakaway from Mexico and join USA.

If I were to involve Britain in South America to increase the cultural assimilation there to make it easier for Americans later, that might raise the ire of the locals and Spain at this point. But there are also the Volga Germans in Brazil, so it might be a peaceful way for New Spain to increase its population, and thus wealth.

James

 

[Dutchie]

Leaving the Norse out of America, and bringing POD to the Revolution, which islands would be likely to join America if they were to win or send an expedition? I'm not as well versed on the Caribbean in that time period.

So it's looking like this:
1775-1783 - American revolution, greatly aided by Norse in America, who are unused to foreign control. Having moved into Quebec along with the French, they aid the American independence movement as something close to their own Things/parliaments and ideals.
1783 - Treaty of Paris - the US holds all land to the Mississippi and going straight north, with claims beyond. France holds Louisiana, Spain and Portugal in South America.
1783-1812 - smarting from their losses in North America, Britain focuses on central and South America, bringing convicts and others for settlement and increasing the population. They ask for some allied assistance, bringing in Hessian and Prussian settlers as well.
1812-1814 - War of 1812 - US attacked by a vengeful British Empire, bringing most of the Americas with it. Patagonia and the remaining Caribbean British isles are traded to America with the peace settlement.
1845-1848 - Republic of Texas, Rio Grande, and Yucatan breakaway from Mexico and join USA.

If I were to involve Britain in South America to increase the cultural assimilation there to make it easier for Americans later, that might raise the ire of the locals and Spain at this point. But there are also the Volga Germans in Brazil, so it might be a peaceful way for New Spain to increase its population, and thus wealth.

James

I have to agree with the earlier post - if you have 300+ of active Norse settlement of the New World, this would not be a secret to the rest of Europe. So how do you explain the 500 year gap between the Viking discovery and the (strikingly OTL) arrival of Columbus? And the nearly 150 years of no contact (the Little Ice Age may have made Greenland uninhabitable, but that doesn't mean the route would be abandoned). And why would the New World Vikings stay in Labrador, for pity's sake? A very uncomfortable place, with a lot more friendly climes a relatively easy sail to the south. I think you'd have a much better arguement if you had a post-Norse culture in the southern Gulf of St. Lawrence at the least, if not further south. That might preclude the settlement of the interior of the continent via the St. Lawrence river and Great Lakes by the French or English (assuming fate decides it is they that arrive in the area). Changes everything after that.

 

[rcduggan]

Leaving the Norse out of America, and bringing POD to the Revolution, which islands would be likely to join America if they were to win or send an expedition? I'm not as well versed on the Caribbean in that time period.

So it's looking like this:
1775-1783 - American revolution, greatly aided by Norse in America, who are unused to foreign control. Having moved into Quebec along with the French, they aid the American independence movement as something close to their own Things/parliaments and ideals.
1783 - Treaty of Paris - the US holds all land to the Mississippi and going straight north, with claims beyond. France holds Louisiana, Spain and Portugal in South America.
1783-1812 - smarting from their losses in North America, Britain focuses on central and South America, bringing convicts and others for settlement and increasing the population. They ask for some allied assistance, bringing in Hessian and Prussian settlers as well.
1812-1814 - War of 1812 - US attacked by a vengeful British Empire, bringing most of the Americas with it. Patagonia and the remaining Caribbean British isles are traded to America with the peace settlement.
1845-1848 - Republic of Texas, Rio Grande, and Yucatan breakaway from Mexico and join USA.

If I were to involve Britain in South America to increase the cultural assimilation there to make it easier for Americans later, that might raise the ire of the locals and Spain at this point. But there are also the Volga Germans in Brazil, so it might be a peaceful way for New Spain to increase its population, and thus wealth.

James

So you say "leaving the Norse out," but yet keep them in the timeline? I'm not following you. IMO, to get an even remotely plausible TL, just drop the Norse stuff and start in the 18th century.

 

[Admiral Brown]

Leaving the Norse out of America, and bringing POD to the Revolution, which islands would be likely to join America if they were to win or send an expedition? I'm not as well versed on the Caribbean in that time period.

So it's looking like this:
1775-1783 - American revolution, greatly aided by Norse in America, who are unused to foreign control. Having moved into Quebec along with the French, they aid the American independence movement as something close to their own Things/parliaments and ideals.
1783 - Treaty of Paris - the US holds all land to the Mississippi and going straight north, with claims beyond. France holds Louisiana, Spain and Portugal in South America.
1783-1812 - smarting from their losses in North America, Britain focuses on central and South America, bringing convicts and others for settlement and increasing the population. They ask for some allied assistance, bringing in Hessian and Prussian settlers as well.
1812-1814 - War of 1812 - US attacked by a vengeful British Empire, bringing most of the Americas with it. Patagonia and the remaining Caribbean British isles are traded to America with the peace settlement.
1845-1848 - Republic of Texas, Rio Grande, and Yucatan breakaway from Mexico and join USA.

If I were to involve Britain in South America to increase the cultural assimilation there to make it easier for Americans later, that might raise the ire of the locals and Spain at this point. But there are also the Volga Germans in Brazil, so it might be a peaceful way for New Spain to increase its population, and thus wealth.

James

I think those arrived after the independence of Brazil IOTL. The might not be there in a TL in which Britain controls South America before its independence from Spain and Portugal
.

 

[JJohnson]

So you say "leaving the Norse out," but yet keep them in the timeline? I'm not following you. IMO, to get an even remotely plausible TL, just drop the Norse stuff and start in the 18th century.

I dropped that portion of this timeline. POD is now the Revolution gaining Canada and something in the Caribbean.

James

 

[Gonzaga]

I think those arrived after the independence of Brazil IOTL.

And the majority of them moved later to Argentina.

 

[JJohnson]

I think those arrived after the independence of Brazil IOTL. The might not be there in a TL in which Britain controls South America before its independence from Spain
.

I rechecked the history, and they arrived after Stalin destroyed the Volga ASSR in the 40s...but there were still ethnic Germans in Brazil, so upping that number, with perhaps other Europeans as well during the 18th and 19th century would make the South American continent easier for the Americans to assimilate, considering they have a mixture of these cultures already.

I'll put a preliminary timeline of the Revolution here shortly.

James

 

[Big Tex]

To get Canada and the Islands on the rebels side you just need to make British rule of the colonies just as harsh all around. This could be accomplished by George III or whomever maybe making some really tough Anti-Catholic laws that really PO Quebec. Labrador will go as Quebec goes and maybe with Canadian soldiers and bases their would be more success militarily in the revolution against Nova Scotia and Halifax which means the fall of all of Maritime Canada.

Getting some islands in the fold is much more difficult as they are pretty much 100% dependent on the British and the Royal Navy is in the way. Maybe you could get the Bahamas in the fold simply via proximity?

Really intersting TL though, and I'm excited to see how Ameriwank would progress with no Order of Freedom or ASBish influence. Good luck!

 

[General Zod]

To get Canada and the Islands on the rebels side you just need to make British rule of the colonies just as harsh all around. This could be accomplished by George III or whomever maybe making some really tough Anti-Catholic laws that really PO Quebec. Labrador will go as Quebec goes and maybe with Canadian soldiers and bases their would be more success militarily in the revolution against Nova Scotia and Halifax which means the fall of all of Maritime Canada.

Getting some islands in the fold is much more difficult as they are pretty much 100% dependent on the British and the Royal Navy is in the way. Maybe you could get the Bahamas in the fold simply via proximity?

Really intersting TL though, and I'm excited to see how Ameriwank would progress with no Order of Freedom or ASBish influence. Good luck!

I concur with Tex's advice. As it concerns Canada, you can simply assume that the Quebec Act isn't passed, which gave religious liberty to Canadian Catholics. This will PO Franco-Canadians and make them willing to join hands with the 13 colonies. And if Quebec joins the fold, so will Labrador and Maritime Canada, or fall to the rebels during the Revolution.

The Islands are a toughie, indeed. Possibly Bahamas by proximity, as Tex suggests. The rest may be conquered during the War of 1812. If Canada is already firmly in the Union, the USA will need to build a strong Navy anyway in order to harm the British, and the Caribbean Islands will be the first obvious target. And they ought to have it anyway previously, in order to fight the War with France. A more successful USA in the Revolutionary War will be more self-confident and expand the Quasi-War in full declared war, and grab French possessions in the Caribbeans. Or maybe the rebels are so successful militarly in the Revolution, with the added help of Canada, thet they are able to get at least some of the British Caribbeans in the peace deal of 1783, and the rest is gained with the peace of 1814.

As an eager fan of Ameriwank, I'd be most happy to help the non-ASB version bloom (but expect me to ruthlessly push and find any decent excuse to let its imperial destiny be fulfilled).

As it concerns the 1774-1799 period, apart from the need to acquire the Caribbeans peacemeal, once the PoD lets Canada join the rebels, I assume the rest of the events will largely unfold as in the ASB Ameriwank timeline. Of course, something like the Caribbean Prerogative (tiny Island States only getting one vote in the Electoral College) will only be developed once they conquer the Islands.

As it concerns the Barbary War and the War of 1812, well, in the latter the USA will certainly focus on conquering the Caribbean and Central American British possessions, and with a good Navy, they can certainly do it. About whether they will able to grab land elsewhere, well, it's more difficult without the Order's help.

Another good idea that we can easily adapt from the ASB timeline is that a USA embolded with victories and territorial gains in the Franco-American War, the Barbary War, and the War of 1812, having gained Canada and the Caribbeans, will be eager to help the Spanish colonies gain their independence and bring them into the fold. The USA sends massive help in money, supplies, and volunteers to help the cause of Simon Bolivar. The latter, grateful, forms strong links with the USA, is able to enlarge Gran Colombia to encompass Peru and Bolivia, and to prevent it from disintegrating, and he leads it to accept statehood in the USA, just like Texas, Yucatan, and Rio Grande later.

I can only make a little wish pretty please with sugar and spice ? Let the Founding Fathers have just a little butterfly of political foresight, and let these two provisions inserted in the Constitution from the start: one Bill, one purpose, and line item veto.

 

[General Zod]

Letting the Republics of Yucatan and Rio Grande to break out successfully from Mexico along with Texas in the 1830s-1840s, with extensive USA help, and so become philo-USA states who later claim statehood together with Texas, is another very good idea, I commend it. And when Mexico objects to the USA annexation of ex-Messican territory, the Mexican-American War happens, and the victorious USA claims, if not All of Mexico, surely the extensive belt of Northern Mexico which lies parallel to the Republic of Rio Grande's southern border to the West.

 

[JJohnson]

Thanks Zod If someone here would like to do a map of the region with the Republic of Yucatan, Texas, and Rio Grande with some internal divisions within them....

James

 

[General Zod]

Thanks Zod If someone here would like to do a map of the region with the Republic of Yucatan, Texas, and Rio Grande with some internal divisions within them....

James

Once again, Wikipedia is your friend...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Republic_of_the_Rio_Grande

Notice that the Republic of the Rio Grande is considerably smaller than Texas, so you could let it achieve US statehood as one state instead of the previous Mexican component states of Cohaulia, Neuvo Leon, and Tamaulipas, or as three states, as you prefer.

As it concerns Yucatan, you may find some maps

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Republic_of_Yucatán

http://omega.ilce.edu.mx:3000/sites/1847/patria/sec/sec_117.html

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:Mexico_states_evolution.gif

The latter link is IMO especially useful since it is a dynamic historical map of Mexico which shows you where the secessionist republic were.

As it concerns the post-war Mexican-American border, I suggest it should give to the US the mexican states of Chihuahua, Sonora, Cohahuila, Nuevo Leon, Baja California, Tamaulipas, Sinaloa, Durango, and the northern halves of Zacatecas and San Louis Potosi.

The border should follow the southern boundaries of the states of Sinaloa, Durango, and Tamaulipas, and divide Zacatecas and San Louis Potosi just north of their capitals. It should follow the Escuinapa-Zacatecas-Tampico line.