A True and Better Alamo Redux

[Fearless Leader]

So will you have an ORBAT for this timelines version of Operation Torch, because with such an earlier date I'm curious to see what units are not going to be available ITTL, and there are going to be fewer forces available in June/July of 1942 then there would have been in November 1942.

I'm working on an OOB presently. As a hint, keep in mind that the threat in the Pacific/India is substantially less, and that the forces sent to participate in the Battle of El Alamein have not been sent from the UK yet.

 

[M. A. Dickens]

I'm working on an OOB presently. As a hint, keep in mind that the threat in the Pacific/India is substantially less, and that the forces sent to participate in the Battle of El Alamein have not been sent from the UK yet.

Speaking of OOBs, how much Allied forces are in Burma? Was the Chinese asked to bring in the CEF as per OTL?

Marc A

 

[Jim Smitty]

Great up date as I finally got around to reading it. One question and one commit. Did the Malta update get 86ed? Secondly a Update only page would be nice.

 

[Fearless Leader]

Speaking of OOBs, how much Allied forces are in Burma? Was the Chinese asked to bring in the CEF as per OTL?

Marc A

Allied forces in Burma are mostly OTL. 18th Anglian division and some other smaller units get redirected from Singapore (OTL destination) to help hold the Sittang River) The CEF still gets sent in OTL but manages to repulse a Japanese attack at Toungoo in TTL (with a little help from the RAF, AVG, and 7th Armoured Brigade). China will be covered in a couple updates.

Great up date as I finally got around to reading it. One question and one commit. Did the Malta update get 86ed? Secondly a Update only page would be nice.

My Malta plotline didn't work because I had Illustrious class carriers doing club runs and that turns out to be physically impossible with non-folding wing Spitfires, so yes. As for an update only page, I'll get on that...

...

...When I come back to this TL.

It's tough because I really do enjoy it and find it relaxing. But with the PhD and the Wedding I've got way too much on my plate right now. I've got to cut myself off and get stuff done right now. No further updates until April. Sorry guys.

 

[ViperKing]

I'm working on an OOB presently. As a hint, keep in mind that the threat in the Pacific/India is substantially less, and that the forces sent to participate in the Battle of El Alamein have not been sent from the UK yet.

So the balance of forces will be much more heavily British. I know for example the US 509th parachute regiment wouldn't be available yet ITTL. OTL the unit shipped out for the UK in June of 1942, and despite months of training alongside the British 1st Airborne division units, their combat jump still turned out nearly disasterous. I've seen nothing ITTL that would imply that unit being available.

The British 78th Infantry Division will also likely not be available yet, though some of the lower level units that came together to form the division might be available. The division was originally assembled in OTL specifically to take part in Operation Torch, and the division commanding general, Major General Vyvyan Evelegh, wasn't even assigned until up around the middle of June 1942. So to go from being promoted to bringing the various components of an entire infantry division together from scratch in only about a month to six weeks would not be a good idea.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Torch#Preliminary_contact_with_Vichy_French

For that matter, given the obvious nature of the target, has anyone ITTL done any operations to feel out the Vichy commanders in North Africa like OTL.

http://www.navweaps.com/index_oob/OOB_WWII_Mediterranean/OOB_WWII_Casablanca.htm

For US units. I'm guessing also that 2nd and 3rd battalions of the US 67th Armored regiment that assaulted Safi may not have any M-4 Sherman tanks available in June or July timeframe. Historically aside from the 54 Shermans assigned to that portion of the invasion force, everyone else was still using the M-3 Stuart light tanks.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Convoy_SL_125

You're also going to have to figure out a suitable submarine target in place of the OTL Convoy SL 125. I don't know if there is any proof or not, but some historians have thought that SL 125 was intentionally planed to create a diversion for the forces participating in Operation Torch.

ITTL despite the German surface fleet having been taken care of, the U-boat arm seems to be doing rather well so far. With four less carriers then OTL(No Sangamons and your proposed Kennebecs will not be ready by July 1942 no matter how you try to spin it, it's not happening) and possibly some of the OTL escort ships still not being available yet due to the earlier timing of the invasion, you're looking at a major risk from U-boat attack which you've really not addressed at all.

As to the timeline in general, overall, I quite enjoyed the last update, and really didn't see any issues or anything with it.

As to creating a timeline only thread, do you plan to update on CF.net also. Given the activity or lack thereof over there, you've kinda already got a timeline only thread in a way, all it really needs is being updated with some of the more recent sections and you're good to go. No need to make three seperate threads for the same thing.

 

[Donald Reaver]

Not a problem, real life take precedence and a Phd is important. On the other hand your marriage makes everything else minor, get that started right before anything else.

 

[burmafrd]

Not a problem, real life take precedence and a Phd is important. On the other hand your marriage makes everything else minor, get that started right before anything else.

never mess with the wife. She knows where you sleep.

 

[Unknown]

Take your time, and congrats.

 

[burmafrd]

So the balance of forces will be much more heavily British. I know for example the US 509th parachute regiment wouldn't be available yet ITTL. OTL the unit shipped out for the UK in June of 1942, and despite months of training alongside the British 1st Airborne division units, their combat jump still turned out nearly disasterous. I've seen nothing ITTL that would imply that unit being available.

The British 78th Infantry Division will also likely not be available yet, though some of the lower level units that came together to form the division might be available. The division was originally assembled in OTL specifically to take part in Operation Torch, and the division commanding general, Major General Vyvyan Evelegh, wasn't even assigned until up around the middle of June 1942. So to go from being promoted to bringing the various components of an entire infantry division together from scratch in only about a month to six weeks would not be a good idea.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Torch#Preliminary_contact_with_Vichy_French

For that matter, given the obvious nature of the target, has anyone ITTL done any operations to feel out the Vichy commanders in North Africa like OTL.

http://www.navweaps.com/index_oob/OOB_WWII_Mediterranean/OOB_WWII_Casablanca.htm

For US units. I'm guessing also that 2nd and 3rd battalions of the US 67th Armored regiment that assaulted Safi may not have any M-4 Sherman tanks available in June or July timeframe. Historically aside from the 54 Shermans assigned to that portion of the invasion force, everyone else was still using the M-3 Stuart light tanks.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Convoy_SL_125

You're also going to have to figure out a suitable submarine target in place of the OTL Convoy SL 125. I don't know if there is any proof or not, but some historians have thought that SL 125 was intentionally planed to create a diversion for the forces participating in Operation Torch.

ITTL despite the German surface fleet having been taken care of, the U-boat arm seems to be doing rather well so far. With four less carriers then OTL(No Sangamons and your proposed Kennebecs will not be ready by July 1942 no matter how you try to spin it, it's not happening) and possibly some of the OTL escort ships still not being available yet due to the earlier timing of the invasion, you're looking at a major risk from U-boat attack which you've really not addressed at all.

As to the timeline in general, overall, I quite enjoyed the last update, and really didn't see any issues or anything with it.

As to creating a timeline only thread, do you plan to update on CF.net also. Given the activity or lack thereof over there, you've kinda already got a timeline only thread in a way, all it really needs is being updated with some of the more recent sections and you're good to go. No need to make three seperate threads for the same thing.

as regards the 509th, blaming them for their transports screwing up is rather strange.

 

[100Fathoms]

Congratulations Sir, many happy returns for you and Mrs Fearless leader...

 

[Shadow Knight]

...When I come back to this TL.

It's tough because I really do enjoy it and find it relaxing. But with the PhD and the Wedding I've got way too much on my plate right now. I've got to cut myself off and get stuff done right now. No further updates until April. Sorry guys.

No problem, FL, we'll be here when you can get the time. I've been down the road of helping plan a wedding and it can be time consuming. And my wife and many of our friends have gone down the PhD route and that is even more time consuming so good luck with both endeavors!

Btw great update, and I was sad to see Bataan fall even though it would have been inevitable. I am curious though on the long term post war effect, if any, on a more successful defense of the Philippines by the US and local forces.

 

[ViperKing]

as regards the 509th, blaming them for their transports screwing up is rather strange.

Only 10 planes actually had their troops jump in, the other 28 ended up nearly running out of fuel and landing on a dry lake bed located near their objectives. It didn't help that the aircraft came in widely scattered either.

This was after months of training in the UK and numerous practice jumps. You send the unit straight into combat without having their months of practice work with British 1st Airborne, things are not going to go well. Having some units have different missions or outcomes is one thing, but stuff like training, training, and of course more training isn't something that can really be butterflied away, unless the US Army is willing to accept lower standards and higher casualty rates.

 

[burmafrd]

Only 10 planes actually had their troops jump in, the other 28 ended up nearly running out of fuel and landing on a dry lake bed located near their objectives. It didn't help that the aircraft came in widely scattered either.

This was after months of training in the UK and numerous practice jumps. You send the unit straight into combat without having their months of practice work with British 1st Airborne, things are not going to go well. Having some units have different missions or outcomes is one thing, but stuff like training, training, and of course more training isn't something that can really be butterflied away, unless the US Army is willing to accept lower standards and higher casualty rates.

you would do well to research the training they got in the US before casting aspersions. And once again why blame the 509th for the Army Air Corps screw ups? Is it something personal?

Ever read the book Currahee? Maybe you would learn something.

 

[ViperKing]

you would do well to research the training they got in the US before casting aspersions. And once again why blame the 509th for the Army Air Corps screw ups? Is it something personal?

Ever read the book Currahee? Maybe you would learn something.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/509th_Infantry_Regiment_(United_States)#World_War_II

In June 1942 under the command of Lieutenant Colonel Edson Raff the 503rd sailed to Scotland becoming the first American parachute unit to go overseas in World War II.

It was attached to the British 1st Airborne Division for training. The training included mass tactical jumps from C-47 aircraft at 350 feet, extensive night training, and speed marching for 10 miles to and from the training area daily; and on one occasion, 32 miles in 11 hours. In summer 1942, allied forces were completing the task of planning Operation Torch, the invasion of North Africa, with the 503rd Parachute Infantry Battalion scheduled to take the lead and make the first combat jump.

Push the invasion up from November 1942 to June/July 1942, that a lot of training and working alongside the British paratroopers that the men of the 509th will not have an opportunity to receive.

The 509th carried out the first US combat drop during the invasion of North Africa. The transport planes flew all the way from English airfields to the African coast. This first operation was unsuccessful, with 7 of its 39 C-47s widely scattered. Only 10 aircraft actually dropped their troops, while the others unloaded after 28 troop carriers, nearly out of fuel, landed on the Sebkra d'Oran, a dry lake near their target. The 509th marched overland to occupy its objective, and on 15 November, 300 paratroopers successfully dropped on the Youks-les-Bains Airfield.

I've said nothing against the men of the 509th themselves. I've no clue how you got the fucking idea that I had a problem with the troops themselves. You would do well not to make assumptions or put words in other peoples mouths.

I'm simply pointing out that even in OTL even after extensive training and numerous practice jumps, of which the USAAF C-47 pilots where a part of, and after several months of working with the British who in 1942 had a lot more battle tested soldiers around then the US did at the time, things still didn't go perfectly on their OTL jump into North Africa. Best bet ITTL would be to substitute the 509th for perhaps one or more units of the British 1st Airborne Division while the 509th completes any additional training in England.

 

[burmafrd]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/509th_Infantry_Regiment_(United_States)#World_War_II



Push the invasion up from November 1942 to June/July 1942, that a lot of training and working alongside the British paratroopers that the men of the 509th will not have an opportunity to receive.



I've said nothing against the men of the 509th themselves. I've no clue how you got the fucking idea that I had a problem with the troops themselves. You would do well not to make assumptions or put words in other peoples mouths.

I'm simply pointing out that even in OTL even after extensive training and numerous practice jumps, of which the USAAF C-47 pilots where a part of, and after several months of working with the British who in 1942 had a lot more battle tested soldiers around then the US did at the time, things still didn't go perfectly on their OTL jump into North Africa. Best bet ITTL would be to substitute the 509th for perhaps one or more units of the British 1st Airborne Division while the 509th completes any additional training in England.

once again read Currahee which is a lot more accurate than anything you will find on wikipedia. And get off your high horse. Yes you DID intimate that the 509th had something to do with the bad transportation and once again YOU intimate that they needed more training. As regards training for what they had to do once they hit the ground they were just fine. Do a little research before you embarrass yourself again- and NOT on the internet which is all too often innacurate.

 

[PsycoCavr]

Has this thread ended?

This is a really good story.
When can we expect more?

Thanks
PC

 

[e of pi]

This is a really good story.
When can we expect more?

Thanks
PC

See here