A Splendorous Sequel? Sons in Splendor discussion

[CrepedCrusader]

For those who havn't seen it here are the links to the original TL
Part I: https://www.alternatehistory.com/fo...r-the-golden-age-of-the-house-of-york.481920/
Part II: https://www.alternatehistory.com/fo...-the-prince-the-pope-and-the-peruvian.490596/

To give a brief synopsis: Edward IV did not die in 1483, but in 1487, recovering long enough to put his house in order and secure the succession of Edward V who ruled until 1533. The first timeline goes up to 1496 and covers the establishment of Edward V's reign, the English discovery of the New World, and a victory against France leading to the counties of Artois and Calais passing to English control.

Part II then took the story to 1536, with Edward V defeating France and Spain, claiming much of the New World, northern France and Brittany outright with the Netherlands and northern Germany being freed from the HRE. So 1536 opens with Edward V's grandson Richard IV coming to the throne. England is nominally Catholic but has severed ties with Rome and has an English Book of Common Prayer. Richard III only reigned for 3 years and had little impact on England.

So this discussion is what happens next? I broadly see R IV being a good King, and at some point a Brittanic Empire is formed to unite the British Isles (inc Scotland?), English holdings in France and the New World together. I would also like some kind of crisis in the mid 17th century like a civil war, possibly including a mad/bad King but beyond that I have few concrete ideas.

I am a medieval specialist, hence the original POD so any Early Modern History help would be much appreciated.

Just a brief post to get the ball rolling, but there are plenty of other elements to discuss: the future of the HRE, and the Netherlands, New Canaan (a Jewish-Hussite Republic in New England), Catholic plots in England using Elizabeth of Eltham (aunt of R IV) and her Catholic children. But for now any general thoughts? Scotland is also interesting.

 

[CaptainShadow]

For those who havn't seen it here are the links to the original TL
Part I: https://www.alternatehistory.com/fo...r-the-golden-age-of-the-house-of-york.481920/
Part II: https://www.alternatehistory.com/fo...-the-prince-the-pope-and-the-peruvian.490596/

To give a brief synopsis: Edward IV did not die in 1483, but in 1487, recovering long enough to put his house in order and secure the succession of Edward V who ruled until 1533. The first timeline goes up to 1496 and covers the establishment of Edward V's reign, the English discovery of the New World, and a victory against France leading to the counties of Artois and Calais passing to English control.

Part II then took the story to 1536, with Edward V defeating France and Spain, claiming much of the New World, northern France and Brittany outright with the Netherlands and northern Germany being freed from the HRE. So 1536 opens with Edward V's grandson Richard IV coming to the throne. England is nominally Catholic but has severed ties with Rome and has an English Book of Common Prayer. Richard III only reigned for 3 years and had little impact on England.

So this discussion is what happens next? I broadly see R IV being a good King, and at some point a Brittanic Empire is formed to unite the British Isles (inc Scotland?), English holdings in France and the New World together. I would also like some kind of crisis in the mid 17th century like a civil war, possibly including a mad/bad King but beyond that I have few concrete ideas.

I am a medieval specialist, hence the original POD so any Early Modern History help would be much appreciated.

Just a brief post to get the ball rolling, but there are plenty of other elements to discuss: the future of the HRE, and the Netherlands, New Canaan (a Jewish-Hussite Republic in New England), Catholic plots in England using Elizabeth of Eltham (aunt of R IV) and her Catholic children. But for now any general thoughts? Scotland is also interesting.

I don't 100% remember the events but how about Richard IV marries Anne of Scotland in place of his brother? Or does he outright conquers Scotland, like a couple of his predecessors tried to, probably using the Balliol claim?

And If there's gonna be a revolt of sorts how about you make it a republican one for shit and giggles?

If England is nominally Catholic how about it gets a sui juris church to keep the average dude happy?

 

[Zygmunt Stary]

Hussite Republic in New England),

What happened to Eastern Europe ITTL?

 

[Kurt_Steiner]

One thing to consider is how the English / Brittanic Empire will face its inevitable/eventual crisis and its collateral effects.

 

[Jonathan1997]

There is the thirty years war from 1618 to 1648, you will as have wars with Louis XIV to get back Northern France. You can also have problems between Catholics, protestants and calvinus. Do you want to story with democracy I do want to keep an quasi absolute monarch because you could argue the only reason the mochras exists because of bad English monarchs. For civil wars you could have a dynastic dispute because the House of York days out in the male line you could than have a Tudor-York dynasty take the throne in a similar situation to the the 1689 glorious Revolution which gave England its first and only dual monarchy in king William III of England and Queen Mary II. You bring in devolution like in your last story's because you could right a story about British territories been overstretched and divisions in the royle family. I am thinking about the movie the lion in winter 1968 starring Katharine Hepburn and Peter O'Toole. I have this line my head Richard V "I'm the greatest power in the thousand years I rule the hole of Great Britain and Northern France I have an Empire from which controls half the new world but I have no sons".

 

[Jonathan1997]

One thing to consider is how the English / Brittanic Empire will face its inevitable/eventual crisis and its collateral effects.

One of the biggest thing that defeated the Britain Empire was Imperial overstretch and only used as colonies share the same fate of the Roman Empire because Rome like Britain controlled territories that we're not profitable. Devolution can be around this but also possibly the necessity to move the capital from London to North America or India. There's no rule saying the capital has to be in one place or one location Turkey has two capitals and the Rome empire had Rome and Constantinople.

 

[Jonathan1997]

I don't 100% remember the events but how about Richard IV marries Anne of Scotland in place of his brother? Or does he outright conquers Scotland, like a couple of his predecessors tried to, probably using the Balliol claim?

And If there's gonna be a revolt of sorts how about you make it a republican one for shit and giggles?

If England is nominally Catholic how about it gets a sui juris church to keep the average dude happy?

English kings had a claim predating Norman conquest there's also good old-fashioned conquering or through marriage

 

[The Professor]

I think a more informal empire will be established as I don't see the Emperor title being recognisable as yet. But imperial regalia and the like being used.
Were "Callis" & "Artis" (to use what I expect their common English pronunciation to be) incorporated into England TTL? Or are they part of separate holdings like OTL Mann, Channel Islands, and (pre1800) Ireland?

 

[CrepedCrusader]

What happened to Eastern

I don't 100% remember the events but how about Richard IV marries Anne of Scotland in place of his brother? Or does he outright conquers Scotland, like a couple of his predecessors tried to, probably using the Balliol claim?

And If there's gonna be a revolt of sorts how about you make it a republican one for shit and giggles?

If England is nominally Catholic how about it gets a sui juris church to keep the average dude happy?

Scotland: so Richard IV is already married to Anne of Cleves but old Edward V managed to convince Queen Margaret to marry her daughter to Prince Manuel (Richard IV's younger brother). So Scotland is getting closer to England. TBH by the 1540s Scotland doesnt have much choice BUT to get drawn into the English orbit - they took a step towards the Protestant camp after the war ended. Anyway I see some kind of disaster (think on the white ship level) leaving Manuel and Anne's child an infant monarch, with all the political power games and act of unity questions given that it will be the King of England's niece/nephew. More generally I see all the various 'English' holding forming the Brittanic Empire as a solution for revolts and inter-jurisdictional squabbles and so there could be a way of doing that under Richard IV's later reign if the Scottish monarch turns out to be vulnerable/mentally weak.

 

[CrepedCrusader]

I don't 100% remember the events but how about Richard IV marries Anne of Scotland in place of his brother? Or does he outright conquers Scotland, like a couple of his predecessors tried to, probably using the Balliol claim?

And If there's gonna be a revolt of sorts how about you make it a republican one for shit and giggles?

If England is nominally Catholic how about it gets a sui juris church to keep the average dude happy?

Potential Revolts etc
Mid 16th Century Catholic ones (think Mary Queen of Scots and the Revolt of the Northern Earls ) but supercharged by a vengeful Catholic Europe and Papacy
Civil War 17th Century: bloody hell yes to Republican one! Would have to think how that would emerge. Yorkist political theory by 1540 is Divine Right of Kings but delegation to trusted (often related subordinates) so that could easily be infected by cronyism and insularity. Plus 'England' (and its possessions) is much more wealthy than OTL which always intensifies social/political upheaval if that is not reflected in social or political stakes/power. In brief I would love a huge saga with Oliver Cromwell. Guy Fawkes and Chums could certainly pop up at some point

 

[CrepedCrusader]

I don't 100% remember the events but how about Richard IV marries Anne of Scotland in place of his brother? Or does he outright conquers Scotland, like a couple of his predecessors tried to, probably using the Balliol claim?

And If there's gonna be a revolt of sorts how about you make it a republican one for shit and giggles?

If England is nominally Catholic how about it gets a sui juris church to keep the average dude happy?

As for Religion that could be a huge development point. In 1540 England is nominally Catholic but the prayer book is one of a few 'Protestant influences'. I'd like R IV to be more anti Catholic than his grandfather given the Catholic dynastic threat and from Europe which would increase Protestantism. BUT, Yorkist control freakery would prevent an independent Church so Anglicanism it is. That tension (mostly from Puritans) could be a greater issue by mid 17th century

 

[CrepedCrusader]

What happened to Eastern Europe ITTL?

Anti-Heresy Crusades in the late 15th century were more severe given the Pope's need to combat a more bellicose western Europe. Maximillian and Charles were especially harsh on Bohemia and Hussites, but rather than oppose the HRE and the Pope as OTL the Hussites had a safety valve in the New World with the Lollards already having established a colony around OTL Rhode Island. The 9 years war (1523-1532) really saw the Hussites bind themselves to England's cause as an anti-Papacy cause. Beyond that more of the Balkans was given to the Ottomans as Charles V had less time to spare in the east whilst fighting England in the west.

Germany is a bit of a mess - the northern states and Saxony are largely pro-Reform and even those which arent have taken to it as a way of throwing off the HRE. The HRE comprises the remnants of central and southern Germany with Bavaria especially powerful. Bohemia is still nominally under HRE control but by 1540 the throne is vacant. This could be a flashpoint in future as Saxony (free and Protestant) isnt going to want a strong Catholic neighbour. It would be an interesting element to the TL although my 16th and 17th century central and eastern European History is sketchy at best so any suggestions are very welcome! I'd love to do something with Poland, Lithuania, and their neighbours, as their culture and politics is so interesting, but I have next to no knowledge.

 

[CaptainShadow]

As for Religion that could be a huge development point. In 1540 England is nominally Catholic but the prayer book is one of a few 'Protestant influences'. I'd like R IV to be more anti Catholic than his grandfather given the Catholic dynastic threat and from Europe which would increase Protestantism. BUT, Yorkist control freakery would prevent an independent Church so Anglicanism it is. That tension (mostly from Puritans) could be a greater issue by mid 17th century

I think religion can be like "Yeah you guys are essentially my worst enemies but too powerful to go screwing around with. Anyways here's de facto rights to get revenue etc from the church in exchange for being under us and support against *insert dangerous to England and conveniently Protestant country here*."

As for Scotland, might go to screw around with your plans rn but how about Anne of Scotland spurns Manuel in favor of a local dude, triggering a militarily successful but politically failing invasion, and then Anne leaves a young daughter, who marries Richard IV's eldest son. Makes for a convenient excuse for a PU and would make the formation of the empire much more simpler.

 

[CrepedCrusader]

One thing to consider is how the English / Brittanic Empire will face its inevitable/eventual crisis and its collateral effects.

Thanks Kurt, any ideas? Religion is the obvious one (Ireland is wide open) plus culture in Brittany and northern France (how will they integrate?) Given the Potosi SIlver too inflation could always be an issue and economic downturn. I like the religio-cultural angle more as it is spicier than inflation. As an Iberian specialist, how do you feel Spain (and Phillip II) would be different without New World resources and having been thoroughly trounced in a war early 16th century? I could use some help there, so far I have 'weakened and marginal' but that doesn't seem fair or particularly reasonable.

 

[The Professor]

What titles does Richard IV have/claim?
I recall:
King of England
(Over)Lord of Ireland
Duke of Normandy (ie Channel Islands)
Count of Artois
Lord/Count of Calais
Is that right?
With the King of Mann, and Prince of Wales, as vassals. (Edit: and Duke of Brittany?)

If so then if Scotland merely becomes a vassal then High King of the British Isles/Domains might be created without causing controversy over use of Emperor title.

Religiously I see Richard promoting a reformist autocephalous Catholicism rather than outright Protestantism.

 

[CrepedCrusader]

There is the thirty years war from 1618 to 1648, you will as have wars with Louis XIV to get back Northern France. You can also have problems between Catholics, protestants and calvinus. Do you want to story with democracy I do want to keep an quasi absolute monarch because you could argue the only reason the mochras exists because of bad English monarchs. For civil wars you could have a dynastic dispute because the House of York days out in the male line you could than have a Tudor-York dynasty take the throne in a similar situation to the the 1689 glorious Revolution which gave England its first and only dual monarchy in king William III of England and Queen Mary II. You bring in devolution like in your last story's because you could right a story about British territories been overstretched and divisions in the royle family. I am thinking about the movie the lion in winter 1968 starring Katharine Hepburn and Peter O'Toole. I have this line my head Richard V "I'm the greatest power in the thousand years I rule the hole of Great Britain and Northern France I have an Empire from which controls half the new world but I have no sons".

Yes please to the film idea! (gosh we will end up with a pop culture page like WMIT? at this rate! But I love the ideas, there's gonna have to be a huge war in France - maybe c1600? Then that plus religious/political tensions (plus Cromwell) = some kind of Republican/ pro-parliament shift which is more 'democratic'? I feel a 'mad' or weak Yorkist king 17th century would help us out with this too. I love the Tudor idea - was something I was considering, ITTL they are certainly numerous enough to still be going but maybe shift their dual monarchy to c1700?

 

[CaptainShadow]

Yes please to the film idea! (gosh we will end up with a pop culture page like WMIT? at this rate! But I love the ideas, there's gonna have to be a huge war in France - maybe c1600? Then that plus religious/political tensions (plus Cromwell) = some kind of Republican/ pro-parliament shift which is more 'democratic'? I feel a 'mad' or weak Yorkist king 17th century would help us out with this too. I love the Tudor idea - was something I was considering, ITTL they are certainly numerous enough to still be going but maybe shift their dual monarchy to c1700?

 

[CrepedCrusader]

I think a more informal empire will be established as I don't see the Emperor title being recognisable as yet. But imperial regalia and the like being used.
Were "Callis" & "Artis" (to use what I expect their common English pronunciation to be) incorporated into England TTL? Or are they part of separate holdings like OTL Mann, Channel Islands, and (pre1800) Ireland?

Thanks Professor, yes I felt like an informal Empire may be better (and could become more formal in time). I was thinking something whereby the Yorkists would have the title 'Emperor' or something but in reality local power is exercised by the Duke (Brittany) or whoever. Northern France is unclear by 1540. I left some loose ends to tidy up there, especially in governance. There is a Council (like OTL contemporary North or Wales) but it is very informal with a Tudor and Giovanni Il Nero (the younger of the Prince's of the Tower's bastard son). Again likely a point of contention likely to contribute to some kind of Imperial unification. Although the population is more loyal by 1540 with most malcontents being replaced by French Protestant Refugees.

 

[CrepedCrusader]

Loving the ideas! FYI if I took this to 2020 my thought it some kind of federated British Isles which is either still part of, or the remains of a collapsed Brittanic Empire, so anything which would support that (regional councils or local representation) is a go. Edward IV obviously didn't do much of this OTL but his local policy could easily evolve into something like this over 600 years

 

[CrepedCrusader]

I think religion can be like "Yeah you guys are essentially my worst enemies but too powerful to go screwing around with. Anyways here's de facto rights to get revenue etc from the church in exchange for being under us and support against *insert dangerous to England and conveniently Protestant country here*."

As for Scotland, might go to screw around with your plans rn but how about Anne of Scotland spurns Manuel in favor of a local dude, triggering a militarily successful but politically failing invasion, and then Anne leaves a young daughter, who marries Richard IV's eldest son. Makes for a convenient excuse for a PU and would make the formation of the empire much more simpler.

Yes I like that, brave but ultimately futile flower of scotland, with internal division too no doubt. Plus a later union and off spring would be good (by which I mean bad) as it would be more inbred (Anne's paternal grandmother was a Yorkist - Cecily sister of Edward IV) which would tee up a weakened/mad king for the 17th century political turmoil quite nicely.