A non anti semitic Nationalist Germany in world war 2

[Aslangeo]

What would be the effects of a non anti semitic but still nationalist Germany in world war 2.
Basically as OTL with a leader very similar to the Austrian corporal, committed to making germany dominant in Europe , using force, but not prejudiced against Jews ? In this scenario German Jews are seen as Jewish Germans, have full rights and participate in the regime and its policies like their Christian compatriots

would this change the course of the war by much?

 

[RedSword12]

A non-Nazi Germany would probably have not started World War II. It would have in all likelihood continued its historical alignment with the Chinese Nationalists, maybe annexed Austria and perhaps renegotiated some borders or German rights in Poland and Czechoslovakia, but actually risking a war is improbable. Even Hitler, whose ideology was centered around the idea of conquest, hesitated at the threshold of war in 1939. German political and market dominance of central eastern Europe which had been espoused by conventional German nationalists had been essentially achieved before the war even started, and I think most conventional conservative governments would have been willing to settle for that.

 

[walmart]

Anti-semitism is a feature not a bug of European nationalism.

 

[rob2001]

In the book Third Reich Victorious, their is story where Hitler turned his hatred away from the Jews and onto the British. The point of divergence is that Hitler join the Imperial German Navy instead of the Bavarian army.

 

[Sekhmet_D]

In the book Third Reich Victorious, their is story where Hitler turned his hatred away from the Jews and onto the British. The point of divergence is that Hitler join the Imperial German Navy instead of the Bavarian army.

I would say that the story's true point of divergence was that Hitler obtained a strong, wise mentor (Gunther Luck) who taught him that antisemitism was wrong. And it really worked out to his advantage.

 

[EasternRomanEmpire]

What would be the effects of a non anti semitic but still nationalist Germany in world war 2.
Basically as OTL with a leader very similar to the Austrian corporal, committed to making germany dominant in Europe , using force, but not prejudiced against Jews ? In this scenario German Jews are seen as Jewish Germans, have full rights and participate in the regime and its policies like their Christian compatriots

would this change the course of the war by much?

Without the belief that Germans are a superior race the government wouldn't push for the annexation of Austria & the Sudetenland and it wouldn't be (as) nationalistic because one of the main features of nationalism is believing the others are inferior to your nation.

 

[RedSword12]

Without the belief that Germans are a superior race the government wouldn't push for the annexation of Austria & the Sudetenland and it wouldn't be (as) nationalistic because one of the main features of nationalism is believing the others are inferior to your nation.

Even if you don't believe in superiority of the German race/culture (something not the case for most conventional German nationalists or even conservatives), nationalism would be a powerful force pushing you to want it at least in theory. The Anschluss, while being facilitated by an illegal rigged vote, was genuinely popular among Germans and Austrians alike, many of whom had voted communist or social-democrat before the Nazi takeovers. I don't think a sane German government is very likely to coerce the Sudetenland out of Czechoslovakia and its allies, simply because said sanity would prevent the madman performance which allowed Nazi Germany to bluff its way to Munich.

 

[Samsonov]

Hitler arguably had four political goals: overturn Versailles, destroy communism, gain Lebensraum and implement antisemitism. Now, it is true that Hitler and others associated both Versailles and communism with Jews, but given how immensely tenuous the link is it seems plausible that a German leader could deny these links. I mean, when the main link is that one Jewish guy signed a treaty and when the leader of the communist world, Stalin, is pretty antisemitic himself, denying the links are hardly much of a stretch. Especially if that leader realises they may need go to war with half the world they might think trying to get German Jews on their side is a good idea. Antisemitism existed way beyond the Nazi part but imagining a pro war party that is not antisemitic, or at least no more than France or Britain, seems possible.

 

[EasternRomanEmpire]

Even if you don't believe in superiority of the German race/culture (something not the case for most conventional German nationalists or even conservatives), nationalism would be a powerful force pushing you to want it at least in theory. The Anschluss, while being facilitated by an illegal rigged vote, was genuinely popular among Germans and Austrians alike, many of whom had voted communist or social-democrat before the Nazi takeovers. I don't think a sane German government is very likely to coerce the Sudetenland out of Czechoslovakia and its allies, simply because said sanity would prevent the madman performance which allowed Nazi Germany to bluff its way to Munich.

The leader in Austria didn't want to annexed by Germany, Italy was protecting Austrian independence before the naval treaty between UK and Germany and most nationalists weren't crazy enough to even re-militarize the Rhineland and increase the army let alone Anschluss Austria. Germany without a Hitler-like person would never begin to seriously try to avenge its loss in the Great War.

 

[NoMommsen]

Without the belief that Germans are a superior race the government wouldn't push for the annexation of Austria & the Sudetenland and it wouldn't be (as) nationalistic because one of the main features of nationalism is believing the others are inferior to your nation.

"Racism" even in the weird hitlerian iteration was near to nil reson for the "Anschluss" of Austria as well as the Sudetenland.
Though ... it shouldn't be forgotten that in the times in question the idea of "race" was often very differently understood than today with all the genetic scinece we've learned since then (back then what was known of 'genetics' was good ol' Gregor Mendel at best and what animal farmers 'know' of breeeding). Race back then was often mixed or sometimes used almost synonymously for rather cultural, ethnical as well as national differences. There were talks of a "greek race", an "english race", a "welsch race", a "french race", a "celtic race" but also of a "russian Race", a "slavic race", a "jewish race", a "catholic race", etc., etc..

Therefore 'unification' with what was understood as all 'german' nationals of europe was an important agenda point for EVERY nationalistic politician in every german speaking country (maybe aside switzerland) already from the aftermaths of the Paris suburbioan treaties (ToV, ToT, ToSG, ToS, ToNS).

Contrary to @RedSword12 I would still see a nationalistic german goverment after an "Anschluss" of Austria would not hesitate - given the opportunity like some ethnical ... 'problems' there - to 'push' for whatever kind of Anschluss for the Sudenten as well. ... at whatever point of time with wathever means.
An occupation of the "Rest-Tschechei" (invasion of Czechia) as IOTL ... that's something a less hitlerian goverment would rather not aim at and leave to some economical developments.

... Germany without a Hitler-like person would never begin to seriously try to avenge its loss in the Great War.

... the Brüning goverment in 1931 with its attempt of 'only' a custom-union (first) proves you wrong in that IMHO at least regarding an attempt on Austria.

And even from the first german goverment under Ebert onwards it was by ALL goverments including the SPD and others outspoken goal to revise its eastern borders to Poland though the whiole time of the weimarian republik.

 

[Aslangeo]

Without the belief that Germans are a superior race the government wouldn't push for the annexation of Austria & the Sudetenland and it wouldn't be (as) nationalistic because one of the main features of nationalism is believing the others are inferior to your nation.

In this scenario the Germans are just as nationalistic, however in this case German Jews are seen as germans of Jewish faith, everything else stays similar

 

[EasternRomanEmpire]

Therefore 'unification' with what was understood as all 'German' nationals of Europe was an important agenda point for EVERY nationalistic politician in every gGrman speaking country (maybe aside Switzerland) already from the aftermaths of the Paris suburbioan treaties (ToV, ToT, ToSG, ToS, ToNS).

Contrary to @RedSword12 I would still see a nationalistic German government after an "Anschluss" of Austria would not hesitate - given the opportunity like some ethnical ... 'problems' there - to 'push' for whatever kind of Anschluss for the Sudetenland as well. ... at whatever point of time with whatever means.
An occupation of the "Rest-Tschechei" (invasion of Czechia) as IOTL ... that's something a less Hitlerian government would rather not aim at and leave to some economical developments.



... the Brüning government in 1931 with its attempt of 'only' a custom-union (first) proves you wrong in that IMHO at least regarding an attempt on Austria.

And even from the first German government under Ebert onwards it was by ALL governments including the SPD and others outspoken goal to revise its eastern borders to Poland though the whole time of the Weimar republic.

In my opinion not every politician in Weimar Germany wanted to violate every single point of the Treaty of Versailles
A non-Hitler government would be much less radical (or simply wouldn't) in increasing the army & military budget, re-militarizing the Rhineland...
While the annexation of Austria was popular in Germany and in Austria this would encounter a few problems:
1. The government of Austria didn't want to be annexed by Germany
2. Italy considered Austria in its sphere of influence and would oppose this plan, IOTL they accepted the Anschluss because of a naval treaty between Germany and Britain (which also caused Mussolini to decide to invade Ethiopia)
3. Without Germany quickly re-militarizing Appeasement might not be considered necessary
Also the Sudetenland is impossible to gain without a crazy person like Hitler because objectively Germany didn't have the military strength to do so at the time and he gained it by bluffing

 

[EasternRomanEmpire]

In this scenario the Germans are just as nationalistic, however in this case German Jews are seen as germans of Jewish faith, everything else stays similar

Anti-semitism is one of the reasons why the Nazis took power

 

[Garrison]

What would be the effects of a non anti semitic but still nationalist Germany in world war 2.
Basically as OTL with a leader very similar to the Austrian corporal, committed to making germany dominant in Europe , using force, but not prejudiced against Jews ? In this scenario German Jews are seen as Jewish Germans, have full rights and participate in the regime and its policies like their Christian compatriots

would this change the course of the war by much?

Well assuming this means WW2 as it was fought IOTL, not some version where 'notzis' power to victory regardless, then the only real difference is that Germany doesn't need as much slave labour but it won't change the final outcome. Germany will still have terrible logistics and still need to loot the Ukraine for food, even more so given less lave labour and more German citizens in factories. Germany will in the end still be buried under the weight of the manpower and industry of its enemies.

 

[prester.john208]

If they somehow end up with Austria, Sudetenland and Danzig/corridor, they're done expanding. Someone else would have to start the war. They'd also still have all their scientists, as would Italy.

 

[RedSword12]

Well assuming this means WW2 as it was fought IOTL, not some version where 'notzis' power to victory regardless, then the only real difference is that Germany doesn't need as much slave labour but it won't change the final outcome. Germany will still have terrible logistics and still need to loot the Ukraine for food, even more so given less lave labour and more German citizens in factories. Germany will in the end still be buried under the weight of the manpower and industry of its enemies.

I don't see such a different Germany waging World War II as fought IOTL, even if we make the implausible leap of assuming that they would be willing to risk it all on another war. A conventional government would be willing to negotiate, for example. The Nazi government is just so fundamentally different that it's not plausible to imagine a World War II happening the way it did IOTL.

 

[DougM]

While the Nazi’s used antisemitism as a tool it is not needed in order to gain control. Nor is it needed to want to make a “greater germany” out of all german speaking peoples.
So you could get this. It will take either a lot of changes to. make key Nazi‘s not hate the Jews or you need different people. to replace them. But historically we have seen many many dictators and militant countries that were not based on anti-semitism.

 

[EasternRomanEmpire]

While the Nazi’s used antisemitism as a tool it is not needed in order to gain control. Nor is it needed to want to make a “greater germany” out of all german speaking peoples.
So you could get this. It will take either a lot of changes to. make key Nazi‘s not hate the Jews or you need different people. to replace them. But historically we have seen many many dictators and militant countries that were not based on anti-semitism.

Most nationalistic governments of the time were fascist, there is probably a link between the two; it was after WW2 that anti-semitism stopped being popular.

 

[prester.john208]

Most nationalistic governments of the time were fascist, there is probably a link between the two; it was after WW2 that anti-semitism stopped being popular.

The Duce was aping AH to the disgust of Balbo.

 

[NoMommsen]

In my opinion not every politician in Weimar Germany wanted to violate every single point of the Treaty of Versailles

... could you name one of at least some importances and/or popularity who wanted not to bring down the ToV - one way or the (communistic) other and/or advocated whatever part of the ToV to be ... "good"?

A non-Hitler government would be much less radical (or simply wouldn't) in increasing the army & military budget, ...

... based on what evidence/source? The second armament program beginning 1st April 1933 to end 30th March 1938 was specififally designed to be accelerated at any point given additional funding and I dont see wha a nationalistic revisional german goverment would NOT pursue this way as soon as someone (Fritz Reinhardt in conjunction with Hjalmar Schacht or similar) would provide such funds.

re-militarizing the Rhineland...

A demand by the military almost from the beginning of the weimarian republik and already again demanded by the stuill Reichswehr in 1933 as otherwise their then set up expansion program would suffer from inadequat numbers of recruits. IOTL it happen for the general already somewhat (too) late.

1. The government of Austria didn't want to be annexed by Germany
...

... as IOTL but it still didn't help ...

Also the Sudetenland is impossible to gain without a crazy person like Hitler because objectively Germany didn't have the military strength to do so at the time and he gained it by bluffing

... and the bluff worked rather well given the letters exchanged by the then leading british (Chamberlain, Halidax ...) or french or italian politicians.
... dunno why only Hitler should be able to 'bluff' ... prepared by Brüning even v.Papen and his 'barons' 'bluffed' (according to sooo many not too german friendly posters on this forum) the british as well as french diplomacy into believing the german inability of paying its reparations in 1932 convincing them these reparations were at least a/the mayor part of the economical crises of europe esp..

Well assuming this means WW2 as it was fought IOTL, not some version where 'notzis' ....

... actualy ... these are what's exactly asked for by the OP ^^