A New Empire: Judea

mikegold

Not sure about another Herod... that was an Idumaean dynasty that was rather unpopular.

Also, I think military technology had decisively moved past chariots by this point.

I'm guessing Judea will take advantage of TTL's equivalent of the Kitos war... Jewish uprisings which OTL gained control of Alexandria, Cyrene, Cyprus and other locations.
 

Sandmannius

Banned
The Empire of AltHistory said:
A New Empire: Judea
Click to expand...

That was brilliantly written and very interesting, also welcome to the forums.

I see a few problems though, by the time of the Year of the Four Emperors, Vespasian was already about to besiege Jerusalem, and the Jewish Rebellion had virtually no chance of succeeding. Though it is true that the revolt lasted a long time, it never really had any momentum, it always just was a matter of time before the Romans would put it down.

Now lets say, even if the rebels were able to expulse the Romans from the Holy Land and take the land back for themselves, you would see the full wrath of the Roman Empire much like the Germanic and Gallic rebels did in the North, with almost a dozen legions getting sent to eliminate the rebels. Vespasian was willing to send that many legions to Germania Inferior because he saw that the rebellion actually had a lot of potential, he did not even see it neccesary to send reinforcements to Iudea, infact he was pulling troops from there to aid his cause elsewhere.
 
LSCatilina

LSCatilina

True, it's nearly impossible to have Vespasien let a border region, critically with the Persians, becoming independent, potentially allowing to the Sassanids to have a sea acess, or by alliance or by conquest.

Now, you can have a more troublesome Year of the Four Emperors, with more hard time to Vespasianus to hold his imperial power, or even leading to his death. Then the Roman Empire (aka the emperor that hold Italy) would be more encline to crush first other pretenders or autonomist rebel (as the ones quoted for Gaul and Germany) than keeping Palestina, at the condition that a new judean revolt don't threat the coastal holding, and of course other eastern province. After some time, Rome could even allow an autonomous regime for Judea (something like Dux Oriens that Palmyra had before Zenobia), maybe allowing Judea to expand itself on Arabia Petrea. It would be difficult to do, but it's the only way to have a autonomous Jewish Kingdom with the PoD I see.
 

Horgus

There is still potential for a Jewish state, just that there are so many odds stacked against it in the classical era. Even if the Romans could be removed as a threat, the Jewish state would still have to come to grips with Persia.

Maybe you could move the date up to the Ottoman era? Perhaps a Sultan elevates one of his Jewish advisers at court to the rank of Despot and he oversees the migration into and creation of an ethnically Jewish fiefdom in Palestine.
 
DanMcCollum

DanMcCollum

The Empire of AltHistory said:
Since so much criticism is being directed at this timeline, I hereby proclaim that I will not finish it.
Click to expand...

Dude, the criticism exists for a reason; the origonal POD was ASB territory at best. But I would seriously hate to see you discouraged from this board. I started doing What-ifs back as a Highschool student back in 1998. Most of them were shot down by the group, and for good reason. But, I came back and learned from it, and really added to discussion on several occasions, even creating a timeline which (apparently, since i restarted it) was fondly remembered.
Keep at it. I think you've got the spirit, but this TL is just way too implausible. I'd love to see you do some more research, and comeback with a TL that could end with a Jewish Empire!
Good luck, man, I really hope to see you stick around!
 

Barbarossa Rotbart

If you see this TL as ASB territory then you have to see OTL also as ASB, because there are so many things in our history which would been regarded as ASB at work if you used them in an ATL.
 
LSCatilina

LSCatilina

There's an issue on ASB on this board.

Take notes kids!

ASB, Alien Space Bats, signify that a PoD or a change in AH is only possible by divine/magical/extraterresrial events. Your TL is ASB only if its involves sudden and unexplicable changes as an earthquake where there wasn't OTL, a leader living again, ennemies fleeing the battlefield for no reason, etc.

On the other hand, there are very unlikely TL. The events described have little chance to had the possibility to occur. But as long it's justified by human decision, it's not ASB.

Now, because unlikely TL are often borderline with ASB, they are quite often confused with them.
 

Monty Burns

LSCatilina said:
Your TL is ASB only if its involves sudden and unexplicable changes as an earthquake where there wasn't OTL, a leader living again, ennemies fleeing the battlefield for no reason, etc.
Click to expand...

I'd count a sudden earthquake as bad style, not as ASB. Same as "great leader XXX fell from horse and died" or "panic in battel erupted on one side" or "great leader XXX fell from horse, was seriously ill, but miraculously recovered".

These things happen, and with a decent probability, therefore no magic is required. Nevertheless, I prefer timelines build on rationality rather than simple luck. In particular, if this is the only POD used it's simply disappointing.
 

Barbarossa Rotbart

Monty Burns said:
These things happen, and with a decent probability, therefore no magic is required. Nevertheless, I prefer timelines build on rationality rather than simple luck. In particular, if this is the only POD used it's simply disappointing.
Click to expand...
But these things happened often enough in our own history. Take a look at how many conflicts in medieval times ended because one person suddenly died. How many battles were lost because a tactical genius made a mistake and no one can explain why he made it.
 
LSCatilina

LSCatilina

Barbarossa Rotbart said:
But these things happened often enough in our own history. Take a look at how many conflicts in medieval times ended because one person suddenly died. How many battles were lost because a tactical genius made a mistake and no one can explain why he made it.
Click to expand...

It's not because we can't explain it rationally that there are no rational explication to this fact.

But you're right on the death of a guy which change things greatly : Barbarossa dead in an anatolian river, end of german crusade. Just like that.

For the earthquakes, on my point of view, they depends of nature itself, and their first causes are to search in the creation of Earth itself. Changing this need divine/magical power, unless you involve future scientist that discover both time travel and geo-enginery, and that's the same thing to me regarding the ASBish. But it's a real vague concept, and i understand your arguments.
 
The Empire of AltHistory

The Empire of AltHistory

Banned
I am not going to finish this thread, because I did not think it through. However, on the Alien Space Bats thread, I will be posting something sometime in the future based off a story I wrote off-site.
 
The Empire of AltHistory

The Empire of AltHistory

Banned
I will be restarting this story, but there will be differences. For one, Judea will be a entirely new state in history, originating in southern Iran as a small state and then spreading. As such, it will be on Alien Space Bats, due to the large size it attains and the other fact above described.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Top
Top