A more politically stronger Edward IV

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Deleted member 161180

What if Edward IV Is more politically competente would he do Better choice and i dont mean only marryng differently but remove any treats to his power and avoid that any country in Europe helps Henry Tudor and make more successul anti French alliances



Sorry, im new to this 😅😅😅
 
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VVD0D95

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He was fairly competent otl, using his dick to marry wasn’t great but reallt he was fairly decent. Tudor wasn’t a threat
 
Politically, he was very competent. He was just a total chump when it came to his love life, a trait he passed down to his grandson Henry VIII.
 
Politically, he was very competent. He was just a total chump when it came to his love life, a trait he passed down to his grandson Henry VIII.

He was better than Henry (as anyone would be) and even though he married for love he used the Woodvilles fairly well, building them up as a faction loyal to him.

His great political fault was dying when he did and having a greedy brother. If he can not die for 5-6 more years, history says the WoR ended in 1471.
 
He was competent and his true problem was the age of his heir when he died and the fact who none of his daughters was already married. If Edward lived at least another couple of years he is dynasty would be secure.

He was better than Henry (as anyone would be) and even though he married for love he used the Woodvilles fairly well, building them up as a faction loyal to him.

His great political fault was dying when he did and having a greedy brother. If he can not die for 5-6 more years, history says the WoR ended in 1471.
True.

The man was competent.

Him not being horny is what you want.
Elizabeth Woodville was not that disgrace and Edward simply died in the wrong moment (like Alexander Magnus)
 
Elizabeth Woodville was not that disgrace and Edward simply died in the wrong moment (like Alexander Magnus)
Respectfully isabella, if there was one disgrace to Edward it was his marriage. While he definitely died at the wrong time, his in law's attempts to lock Richard out of power (and the potential loss of his lands) were what got E5 yeeted. Without the Woodvilles there would've been no "me or him" situation in 1483 for Richard.

To answer the OP, the knock offs would be a delayed if at all Warwick rebellion. If the Warwick rebellion doesn't happen then you can expect a surviving house of Lancaster, as Westminster would marry someone. A very very junior princess perhaps. Other knock offs would include the Neville girls being used as proxies rather than the Woodvilles, the Nevilles staying alive at their home base i.e. the north. Richard would need a different powerbase, perhaps Northumberland or the confiscated Clifford, Dacre etc lands. Edward marries internationally, possibly Bona. One of the Neville girls marry a York and the other gets shoved into the nunnery. Given Edward's plans for George, could expect it being Richard. Hmm Edward needs an international bride, he ain't marry gonna Bona tho IMO, perhaps Marie of Brittany/Navarre. Or Catherine of Portugal tho that'll be a stretch.
 
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Respectfully isabella, if there was one disgrace to Edward it was his marriage. While he definitely died at the wrong time, his in law's attempts to lock Richard out of power (and the potential loss of his lands) were what got E5 yeeted. Without the Woodvilles there would've been no "me or him" situation in 1483 for Richard.
Edward left an underage heir with no foreign connections. I've seen it said that a son for Charles the Bold and Margaret of York could just as easily have stayed Richard's hand. And it's HARDLY as though Edward IV was the first king of England to contract a less than stellar marriage (Henry VI did, the Black Prince - not king but close enough - did). Edward succeeded (spectacularly) where they failed - both left only one surviving legitimate son. Edward and Liz Wydeville had ten kids, both boys to carry on the family, and girls to marry abroad.
Problem was that none of Ned's kids were married when he died.

From my thread here:
There aren't many differences between Henry VII's reign and that of Edward IV in OTL. Much of his policy in administration was in effect a continuation - there were some areas where Henry went further in part because of his instability and the fact that his was a new dynasty - Henry's advantage was that many of the old families were either extinct by Edward IV's death and Richard's usurpation or were minors.

In terms of a surviving Yorkist line and a peaceful succession on Edward IV's death - then you can probably expect much the same.

Ignoring the high nobility for a moment the real power and influence at court at this period were the immediate members of the household (the gentlemen and their connections who saw the King in a very personal way every day) - it is notable that many of Edward IV's household supported rebellions against Richard III in OTL. These men were usually of means and came from the shires (they were country gentleman of some means in most cases) - they might be related to the royal family (Edward's household included his brother in law Thomas St Leger for example) or might have connections to aristocratic families etc or were long standing companions (such as Hastings brother).

These men would also serve as Justices of the Peace, would be summonsed to Parliament etc - some would rise through the ranks due to the connections they made and might indeed end up as peers or their descendants would over time due to the opportunities of being in personal attendance on the monarch.

Many of Henry's so called new men may well have come to note during Edward V's reign - Empson was a successful lawyer, knight of the Shire etc (he was in his late thirties by Henry VII's accession), Dudley was young and again a rising lawyer when he attracted Henry's attention in the 1490s but he was the son of a Knight and grandson of a baron, Brandon's family were a prominent East Anglian family and so on. John Morton (who was nearly sixty at Henry's accession) is sometime described as a new man but he became a Bishop under Edward IV.

Henry essentially continued to rely on the great families just as much as any other King and on his paternal and maternal relatives (and like the Yorkists many of those relatives were not top flight aristocrats but gentlemen or the lower nobility - the Welles, Poles etc)

The Tudor idea of new men - middle class professionals in the administration - was not a massive shift as they had always played a role - some would argue that as the role of government increased they became more necessary and therefore more visible and a lot of historians believe that to describe it as a deliberate Tudor policy is an exaggeration.

For a surviving Edward V the royal household will include the men and boys he probably grew up with members of his council in Wales and their connections along with connections of his father and mother - it becomes a personal choice of the monarch due to the close contact - these men would dress and undress him, serve him his food etc.

What he will also have is some pretty powerful and wealthy male relatives - the Duke of Gloucester and the Duke of Buckingham principally and his brother the Duke of York and Norfolk - but all will be reliant on continuing royal favour.

Edward IV was pretty conciliatory to most Lancastrians in his first reign - he was more aggressive after the brief restoration of Henry VI.

By the 1480s and Edward's death - the Courtenay's were powerless and had really vanished from the political landscape, de Vere was a wandering exile who didn't pose that much of a threat, Henry Tudor either comes home and is allowed to inherit his mother's wealth or he stays in exile along with his uncle. The Percy's had reconciled themselves to Yorkist government and the 4th Earl of Northumberland was loyal to Edward IV (though he probably resented playing second fiddle to Richard of Gloucester in the north).

You will have to decide what to do with all the dodgy legal deals Edward IV had made to enrich his wider circle - it did alienate some of the nobility who saw it as a threat to their long-term financial security.

So the Warwick estates - technically they should have gone to the male heir (son of John Neville on Warwick's death and then his heirs when he died young) with the Salisbury and Beauchamp inheritances jointly split between Warwick's daughters (and in the case of the Beauchamp inheritance it should have rested with Warwick's widow and then passed to her daughter's or their heirs)

The Holland inheritance - should have been split by very distant co-heirs but was settled on Edward's sister Anne and her daughter by her second husband - a small part was reserved for Lord Richard Grey and the rest would pass to Dorset's heir who was supposed to marry Anne St Leger.

Norfolk settled on Richard Duke of York by his father (the Howards and Berkeley co-heirs were ignored) and in the event of Anne Mowbray's death it would remain with the heirs of Edward IV.

By the 1480s many of the older generation were dying off - you will have several church appointments falling in your lap. Many of the characters that became Henry VII's court were around and served under Edward IV so don't discount people.

Edward V is also going to have surviving relatives on his maternal side which will continue to play a role in his household and government - he is also related quite closely to a number of peers through his maternal and paternal ancestry.

Edward V will also be a bit short of cash as he like his father has married a wife without any wealth - he is also stuck with providing for his mother (Elizabeth was left Sheen I think by Edward IV along with the dower settled on her which came out of crown lands), his grandmother is still living and holding her dower from the York duchy, he has numerous sisters who will need significant dowers (Edward IV intended them to have around 10,000 on their marriages but that might have to be higher if Edward V looks abroad for them) - he's might need his own Morton's fork.
 
Edward left an underage heir with no foreign connections. I've seen it said that a son for Charles the Bold and Margaret of York could just as easily have stayed Richard's hand. And it's HARDLY as though Edward IV was the first king of England to contract a less than stellar marriage (Henry VI did, the Black Prince - not king but close enough - did). Edward succeeded (spectacularly) where they failed - both left only one surviving legitimate son. Edward and Liz Wydeville had ten kids, both boys to carry on the family, and girls to marry abroad.
Problem was that none of Ned's kids were married when he died.

From my thread here:
I really don't think so, Margaret was politically ambivalent to Edward after George's execution, if anything a son of her and Charlie would've secured Richard further.

Indeed he isn't, but he's the only one who's in laws got hella unpopular, percieved as grasping etc. While he himself handled it like a boss, it's pretty clear that it only papered over the cracks.
 
I really don't think so, Margaret was politically ambivalent to Edward after George's execution, if anything a son of her and Charlie would've secured Richard further.
No. A son means that EoY wouldn't be jilted when Marie of Burgundy dies. Obviously Marie of Burgundy dying was pretty much butterfliable, but a son for Marge means that Louis XI isn't dropping Liz. So likely, Liz and Charles VIII marry in 1483ish.
Indeed he isn't, but he's the only one who's in laws got hella unpopular, percieved as grasping etc. While he himself handled it like a boss, it's pretty clear that it only papered over the cracks.
Henry III's in-laws were unpopular. As were the Hollands favoured by Richard II, the Beauforts favoured by the Lancasters. It was an occupational hazard of being "related to the royal family" but not "part" of the royal family
 
No. A son means that EoY wouldn't be jilted when Marie of Burgundy dies. Obviously Marie of Burgundy dying was pretty much butterfliable, but a son for Marge means that Louis XI isn't dropping Liz. So likely, Liz and Charles VIII marry in 1483ish.

Henry III's in-laws were unpopular. As were the Hollands favoured by Richard II, the Beauforts favoured by the Lancasters. It was an occupational hazard of being "related to the royal family" but not "part" of the royal family
Fair enough it's clear we're coming at this from two different angles. I see your point. I hope you see mine.

Can we atleast agree that the Woodville marriage was idiotic?
 
Fair enough it's clear we're coming at this from two different angles. I see your point. I hope you see mine.

Can we atleast agree that the Woodville marriage was idiotic?
It was idiotic yes. But most of the anti-Wydeville sentiment came from the Nevilles (who were jealous at losing influence)
 
It was idiotic yes. But most of the anti-Wydeville sentiment came from the Nevilles (who were jealous at losing influence)
The Neville propaganda earlier had influence but I doubt it alone was enough to keep anti Woodville sentiment high as late as 1482, enough to alienate Hastings, Buckingham, and Gloucester. Not a few powerful nobles viewed them as untrustworthy social climbers. Was Warwick that good a propagandist that he kept his machine chugging even after his death? Something's not adding up here.
 
The Neville propaganda earlier had influence but I doubt it alone was enough to keep anti Woodville sentiment high as late as 1482, enough to alienate Hastings, Buckingham, and Gloucester. Not a few powerful nobles viewed them as untrustworthy social climbers. Was Warwick that good a propagandist that he kept his machine chugging even after his death? Something's not adding up here.
Gloucester was continuing Warwick’s work. Hastings likely supported Richard because his own rivalry with Dorset and Buckingham, well, his actions are pretty much unexplainable...

@mcdnab: Just a couple of corrections to your affirmation: Exeter was attained so he and his heirs lost any right to his lands, unless the attainder was later revoked. Anne received her husband‘s lands after the attainder so her daughters by both weddings were legitimate heiresses of their mother. The Norfolk question is a little more complicated, still when Anne married Richard of Shrewsbury and her inheritance was settled on him in the wedding contract, Berkeley was compensated (demonstrated by the fact who he do not claimed Norfolk), while Howard likely refuted the compensation offered by the King
 
Gloucester was continuing Warwick’s work. Hastings likely supported Richard because his own rivalry with Dorset and Buckingham, well, his actions are pretty much unexplainable...

@mcdnab: Just a couple of corrections to your affirmation: Exeter was attained so he and his heirs lost any right to his lands, unless the attainder was later revoked. Anne received her husband‘s lands after the attainder so her daughters by both weddings were legitimate heiresses of their mother. The Norfolk question is a little more complicated, still when Anne married Richard of Shrewsbury and her inheritance was settled on him in the wedding contract, Berkeley was compensated (demonstrated by the fact who he do not claimed Norfolk), while Howard likely refuted the compensation offered by the King
So Gloucester was keeping the propaganda machine alive in London while he himself was 200 miles away in Middleham? How?
 
So Gloucester was keeping the propaganda machine alive in London while he himself was 200 miles away in Middleham? How?
Gloucester just played the victim and got other who felt their personal power damaged by the Woodville or people who still fell for the greedy upstart Woodville’s story as supporters.
 
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Gloucester just played the victim and got other who felt their personal power damaged by the Woodville or people who still fell for the greedy upstart Woodville’s story as supporters.
But how did he influence various times the Woodvilles almost got lynched while he was on the Scottish marches?

So majority of England before Richard's ascension ?
 
But how did he influence various times the Woodvilles almost got lynched while he was on the Scottish marches?

So majority of England before Richard's ascension ?
Once the seed are there you need just to disperse whispers, mostly unsupported, and then retrieve the story with a list of grievances and “proofs” (like blaming Elizabeth for the Norfolk and Holland‘s arrangements, who in truth were pretty straightforward and doing that was in Edward’s own interest).
 
Once the seed are there you need just to disperse whispers, mostly unsupported, and then retrieve the story with a list of grievances and “proofs” (like blaming Elizabeth for the Norfolk and Holland‘s arrangements, who in truth were pretty straightforward and doing that was in Edward’s own interest).
Was he spreading rumors in 75? 79? FWICT no. Were the Woodvilles still unpopular? FWICT yes.
 
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