A Loose Bandage - McKinley Lives!
- Thread starter Beck Reilly
- Start date
Beck Reilly said:
The Netherlands had their own distinct culture and national identity by 1900. They aren't going to be peaceful inside of a German Empire.
If Germany is strong enough to take the Netherlands which is distinct from Germany, it ought to be able to take Bohemia and Moravia which are culturally assimilated with 1/3rd of the population German.
Your Greater Hungary is majority Slavic. Why such a nation would form and would ally against Germany which militarily surrounds it, is difficult to fathom.
None of these things are impossible individually but taken together the map seems highly implausible.
I'm interested in how you intend to pull it off.
davekohlhoff said:
I'll briefly explain, but the majority will have to wait until I can finally gather all my thoughts onto paper (or computer).
Anyways, the trigger for TTL's First World War (a.k.a. the First Global War, not really the most imaginative of names, but that doesn't really matter) is the death of Franz Joseph and the succession of Franz Ferdinand to the Austro-Hungarian throne. Within months of the succession, he begins to call for the reforms he called for earlier in OTL, mainly the creation of a third, primarily Croat, Slavic kingdom as an equal to Austria and Hungary in the Empire.
This outrages Magyar nationalists (who, at the moment, hold down the Slavs of the kingdom in order to retain some type of dominant position within the Empire). Over the course of months, support within Hungary builds for the nationalists, who, when FF calls in earnest for the creation of a third kingdom, secede from the Empire.
The Austrians, of course, are equally bullshit. They're empire is being torn apart and, indeed, Austrian lands are soon separated from Austria proper by an unfriendly Hungary. The solution: Austria is going to use military force to subdue the rebellion, thus polarizing opinion in Hungary further in favor of the Magyar government. Of course, Austria (just Austria, the "-Hungary" part gone, obviously) would not act without the consent and support of the Kaiser (Wilhelm, that is), who pledges unconditional support.
The Hungarians, predictably, are scared shitless. They are sitting upon a restless Croat population within their own borders and are surrounded by two unfriendly powers. The solution of course, is that friends are needed. Hungarian emissaries slip across the border into Russia and Italy (and from there into France, as well).
The Russians (or perhaps, just the Tsar, is more appropriate), seeing an opportunity to weaken their Germanic neighbors (who, BYW, are becoming increasingly powerful), pledges support to Hungary, despite the fact that Hungary seceded simply because the Austrians wanted to grant greater rights to the Slavs in the Austro-Hungarian Empire, thus sucking the powers in.
Now, you got one hell of a sticky situation. Austria and Germany stand poised to crush the Hungarian rebellion, but suddenly the Russians are massing on their borders (despite the fact that serious civil problems are occurring within the Russian Empire). Meanwhile, the French stand ready to honor their treaty obligations to the Russians, and the Swedes are preparing to move against Russia, who has placed itself across the ring from Swedish ally Germany (boy, wouldn’t the Swedes like Finland back?).
The Kaiser thinks the Russians are bluffing and, in July of 1917, German and Austrian forces cross the border into Hungary. The Russians are not, and soon launch an invasion of Germany and Galicia. The Austrians and Germans declare war, as do the Swedes (the Italians are noticeably absent). The French hesitate, but once German forces are engaging the Russians, declare war on the Centrals, and begin the buildup.
Soon, Russian forces have sufficiently distracted the Germans so that the Hungarians fight the Austrians to a standstill. Meanwhile, the French launch a bloody invasion of Alsace-Lorraine, running into German fortified positions. The Russians are knocked out within five months, when massive military defeats in OTL Poland, combined with labor strikes pent up since the Russian victory in the Russo-Japanese War explode. Russian troops begin the defensive and the Tsar is overthrown in February of 1918. Johnny-come-lately Romania declares war on Hungary, Russia, and France.
Meanwhile, with Russian forces effectively out of the fight, Germany launches the Schlieffen Plan, in the capable hands of Erich Ludendorff, who, unlike, von Moltke the Dumber, executes it with the full force of the German Army, sweeping through swaths of the Netherlands and Belgium (instigating a British declaration of war). The British entry emboldens the Italians, who renege on their treaty obligations and declare war on Austria and Germany.
However, the British arrive in time to act as speed bumps in the German march on Paris, which just barely escapes encirclement in the summer of 1918. Another, smaller, expeditionary force lands in Hungary to shore them up, although, with both Austrian and German forces distracted by graver threats, they’ve been doing all right on their own.
America enters the war in August of 1918, with the sinking the SS Columbia, an American steamship by a German U-boat. The United States Expeditionary Force is quickly gathered up and sent to France, consisting of almost the entirety of the regular army.
On the eastern front, the Treaty of Riga is signed, which is, in some ways, similar to OTL’s Treaty of Brest-Litovsk. German forces continue to push to the outskirts of Paris when the Americans arrive, shoring up the Parisian defense. This is when the Germans launch their masterstroke. The Mexicans, German allies since the 2nd M-A War, declare war on the US and invade, beyond what the Americans thought possible of the revamped and retrained Mexican Army.
America is forced to withdraw the USEF from Europe, as its own territorial integrity comes first and foremost. With the Americans gone, the defense cracks and a renewed offensive sees German soldiers eating in Parisian cafes by Easter of 1919. France bows out of the war, as does Britain a couple of weeks later.
The Germans and, especially, are too exhausted by the war to reoccupy Hungary, which wins its independence. Since the beginning of the war, Austria has fractured furthermore into two nations, Austria and Czechoslovakia. Austria, so severely weakened by war that they actually fear the Italians, ask to join the German Empire, while the Czechs retain their independence by special request. The Germans aren’t going to risk renewing the war by invading what is already a virtual puppet. Austria loses much of her Adriatic possessions to the Serbians, who take much of Bosnia with the support of the British. Poland and Lithuania are created, as per OTL, as a buffer between the Fatherland and the Motherland. The Germans are sufficiently frightened by the new Soviet state as to allow the nominal independence of German-dominated nations to the east.
Meanwhile, the Germans continue to occupy northern France, Belgium, and the Netherlands. The Treaty of Amsterdam sees the end of the French and Belgian occupation, while the (admittedly, troublesome [for the moment]) Netherlands are retained. Seeing how the lack of coast hampered the operation of the German Navy against the British, the Kaiser sees the Dutch ports as a mighty handy thing to have.
The war in Europe (although not North America) is over, with the non-border related details still to be worked out.
I think this sufficiently explains the reasoning behind the map. I don’t see too much in this which is truly unsound, given the background of the war and the previous events of TTL. But, I might be wrong. Comments are welcome.
Bill Cameron
Banned
Beck,
Great TL and great thread. Thank you for sharing it with us.
One question:
Why not three nations; Austria, a Czech nation, and a Slovak nation? We have that now in the OTL. Why knit the Czechs and Slovaks together into one nation as one done at Versailles?
In your ATL and despite their 'winning', the Germans (both in Germany proper and Austria) don't seem to mind an explosion of independent nations across central and eastern Europe. So why not Czech and Slovak nations?
Thanks again for sharing with us.
Bill
Great TL and great thread. Thank you for sharing it with us.
One question:
Beck Reilly said:
Why not three nations; Austria, a Czech nation, and a Slovak nation? We have that now in the OTL. Why knit the Czechs and Slovaks together into one nation as one done at Versailles?
In your ATL and despite their 'winning', the Germans (both in Germany proper and Austria) don't seem to mind an explosion of independent nations across central and eastern Europe. So why not Czech and Slovak nations?
Thanks again for sharing with us.
Bill
Bill Cameron said:
The idea of a Czechoslovak Union goes back to the late 1800s, before the Treaty of Versailles. Indeed, the nation was founded in October of 1918, when the Austro-Hungarian Empire collapsed. And I wouldn't exactly call it an "explosion." There are only 3 new states in Central and Eastern Europe.
Thanks for the compliments.
Btw, I changed the map slightly. In exchange for Czechoslovak independence, Germany receives the Sudetenland.
Germany retains a Med outlet,- COOL- thru stuck up that narrow Adriatic sea It may have troubles.
Yugoslavia would probably be broken up into several smaller pieces. And with Blue to the North and South, but Green to the East, The politics would be Interesting. Especially as They are Natural Red Partners.
Sweden getting Finland Back means No Neutrality in GW2.
?How did the Japs Make out in all this?
Yugoslavia would probably be broken up into several smaller pieces. And with Blue to the North and South, but Green to the East, The politics would be Interesting. Especially as They are Natural Red Partners.
Sweden getting Finland Back means No Neutrality in GW2.
?How did the Japs Make out in all this?
Why hasn't Italy done better against Austria ITTL than it did against Austria-Hungary IOTL?Beck Reilly said:
Michael Canaris said:
The war in Italy is, by necessity, much more defensive in nature than in OTL (i.e. the Austrians are on the defensive). With help from the Germans, they are able to hold back the tide on their 1917 border and, since they do not overextend themselves with any offensive, they are never decisively defeated. Plus von Hoetzendorf has other things to worry about (such as his hatred of the Magyars) and thus never gets involved enough on the Italian Front to drive many of the strategic and tactical blunders of the Austrian armed forces.
Bill Cameron
Banned
Beck Reilly said:
Beck,
I knew about the age of the 'Czechoslovakia' idea, I just wondering about it being applied in practice in your ATL.
Sure, the Czechs and Slovaks have had the idea for a union for centuries, but it came apart relatively quickly once applied. That unified nation lasts for ~20 years between 1918 and 1938, when it is submerged under first Nazi and then communist occupation. When it re-emerges in the early 90s, it lasts less than a few years before splitting into its Czech and Slovak portions.
So the idea may be centuries old, but in practice it lasted less than one generation; ~25 years. Why assume a union in your ATL then? Or was it they way their Nazi and Communist occupiers treated both Czch and Slovak that made the idea of political union no longer feasible?
It's a teeny-weeny quibble, I admit. But those teeny-weeny bits are sometimes the ones that make an ATL really stand out from the herd.
A rhetorical flourish!
No need to thank me for the compliments, you EARNED them after all!
Bill
War Plan Red was war with G. Britain....
War Plan Crimson was the Invasion of Canada. Try requesting it from the National Archives.
War Plan Crimson was the Invasion of Canada. Try requesting it from the National Archives.
pacifichistorian
Banned
*sigh* There is such a fascination with that date among Americans. Nobody bothers to look at a calendar. 7 Dec 1911 was a Thursday...
And could you have done a more transparent ripoff of the Reichstag fire?
*sigh* That is so tired. And the real reason the U.S. entered the war had damn all to do with Lusitania, anyhow.
BTW, your suggestion Cadillac is more successful than Ford, & Henry ends up "failed", is simply not credible. It was Henry who wanted to sell cheap cars, & was proven extremely right; if anything, it should've been William Murphy or Lemuel Bowen (OK, I looked it up) who failed, since they wanted to sell expensive cars...
Last edited: