A Different Lancaster-York Union

[Kellan Sullivan]

I discovered this earlier, while I was trying to source where I'd seen that Edward IV considered marrying Anne Neville to his stepson for @lolotte34:

Louis issued an invitation to both Warwick and Marguerite to join him at Angers (in Anjou), but while Marguerite accepted, Warwick refused. On June 3, Louis’s wife, Charlotte of Savoy, finally gave birth to a son and Edward IV was asked to be godfather – the move likely helped persuade Warwick to play ball and he finally agreed to meet Louis at court. On June 8, Louis and Warwick met for the first time. By all accounts, Warwick indicated he was willing to work with Lancaster, but in exchange Louis had to promise that he would force Marguerite to issue him a blanket pardon for his role in deposing her and her husband nine years before and give him a prominent role in the government.
...
After Louis and Warwick met, Louis wrote to Marguerite and asked her to sign a 30-year peace treaty between France and the House of Lancaster. Marguerite agreed. Word of this reached England and, intriguingly, Edward IV responded by offering Prince Edward [of Westminster] the hand of his eldest daughter, Princess Elizabeth, then only four years old. That match is an interesting one to contemplate – it could have essentially served the same purpose of Elizabeth’s eventual marriage to Henry Tudor 16 years later by joining Lancaster and York by marriage and ending the civil war. Logistically, it would have worked similarly to the agreement reached between Stephen of Blois and Henry Plantagenet back in the 12th century, in which Stephen was allowed to live out the rest of his life, but Henry was named his heir.

So, what if Elizabeth has a stillborn son or a miscarriage or Edward V is born female, so that the Yorkists are actually considering this...

Could be an interesting take on it. Marguerite's pride might be in the way, and there's always the possibility that Elizabeth Wydeville produces a son at some point...

 

[Kellan Sullivan]

No takers?

 

[BlueFlowwer]

A Edward of Westminster and Elizabeth of York scenario would be interesting. Henry Tudor would most likely be married to Cecily of York then.

 

[Kellan Sullivan]

A Edward of Westminster and Elizabeth of York scenario would be interesting. Henry Tudor would most likely be married to Cecily of York then.

I once saw a TL where Anne Neville wound up married to Tudor, while EoW married Elizabeth. Not sure how Marguerite d'Anjou viewed the Tudors, OTL

 

[Philippe le Bel]

Good way for Edward IV to commit political suicide though. With the Kingmaker effectively banished on the continent for now, and attainted either now or soon, all his properties and lands (second only to the king's!) are up for grabs by the king and his loyal supporters. Not to mention the lands of all other banished Lancastrians. Edward IV's supporters can be relatively sure that their seizures of Lancastrian land will be contested once Edward of Middleham becomes king.
So firstly Edward IV's supporters are mad at him (and with two ambitious brothers in Richard and George, can Edward IV really afford that?) and secondly he's selling the futures of his sons and supporters for...what, momentary peace? Edward IV is in an advantageous position at this point. He's sitting on his island and the enemy has to come to him. The longer he can consolidate his hold and weed the Kingmaker's erstwhile lands of his supporters the better. Any "permanent" offer of marriage or transferring the throne to Lancaster leads to future instability and claims of duplicity. Better to put off France in some other way, at least try to decrease their support of Lancaster.

 

[Kellan Sullivan]

Good way for Edward IV to commit political suicide though. With the Kingmaker effectively banished on the continent for now, and attainted either now or soon, all his properties and lands (second only to the king's!) are up for grabs by the king and his loyal supporters. Not to mention the lands of all other banished Lancastrians. Edward IV's supporters can be relatively sure that their seizures of Lancastrian land will be contested once Edward of Middleham becomes king.
So firstly Edward IV's supporters are mad at him (and with two ambitious brothers in Richard and George, can Edward IV really afford that?) and secondly he's selling the futures of his sons and supporters for...what, momentary peace? Edward IV is in an advantageous position at this point. He's sitting on his island and the enemy has to come to him. The longer he can consolidate his hold and weed the Kingmaker's erstwhile lands of his supporters the better. Any "permanent" offer of marriage or transferring the throne to Lancaster leads to future instability and claims of duplicity. Better to put off France in some other way, at least try to decrease their support of Lancaster.

Makes sense. Not to mention when the English find out that they're in France's debt (Louis XI included a clause to his agreement with Marguerite d'Anjou about how England owed France x-amount (money or troops) for n-years if France supported a Lancastrian restoration) akn't no Englishman gonna be happy about owing Johnny Frenchman. Louis was the guy who brought Warwick and Marge together. She basically just wanted Warwick's head, Louis talked her down and into giving Warwick a blanket pardon.

Would've made for interesting times if she'd got Warwick's head on a stick like she wanted. Presumably no Readeption, and the Lancasters would probably languish a few generations in exile as the "pretend pretenders" before dying out or assimilating. Warwick was also promised guardianship of Edward of Westminster should Henry VI die before Eddie was 18. When Marge and Warwick met, Eddie was a few months short of that date. And I think controlling the boy would've been even MORE difficult than Warwick had had with Edward IV

 

[Kellan Sullivan]

I was thinking about this some more. Marguerite and her son's departure from Calais was delayed by storms several times before they actually left. What would happen if Edward IV strikes BEFORE they leave? Say, an alt-Tewkesbury/Barnet minus the Prince of Wales. Instead the Lancasters are left in exile for even longer. Is Louis really going to offer to help them? And what of Edward of Westminster? What becomes of him (and presumably, Anne Neville)? Would Edward IV declare not only the Countess of Warwick (but her daughter, Anne, too) legally dead and give the lot to Clarence-Isabel? Could EoW use the Neville inheritance of his wife as a later launchpad?

 

[kasumigenx]

Westminister can have a son that marries elizabeth of york.

 

[Scaevola]

Westminister can have a son that marries elizabeth of york.

That's just asking for future conflict, as talked about above. More likely that the power of George of Clarence and Richard of York, and Edward IV's supporters who gravitate to their side, forces Edward IV to marry Elizabeth of York to one of her cousins, either a son of George or Richard, or perhaps John de la Pole for example.

 

[FalconHonour]

My only fear with Elizabeth of York marrying Edward of Lancaster - I refer to Marguerite d' Anjou's son as Edward of Lancaster, since Edward V was also born at Westminster. Saves me getting confused - is the age gap between them. He's 13 years older than her. Is he really going to want to wait for her to grow up, no matter what her bloodline? Would Margaret of York (OTL Duchess of Burgundy) not be a better match for him, really? I know she's seven years older than him, but surely that's still better than well over a decade younger?

 

[Kellan Sullivan]

My only fear with Elizabeth of York marrying Edward of Lancaster - I refer to Marguerite d' Anjou's son as Edward of Lancaster, since Edward V was also born at Westminster. Saves me getting confused - is the age gap between them. He's 13 years older than her. Is he really going to want to wait for her to grow up, no matter what her bloodline? Would Margaret of York (OTL Duchess of Burgundy) not be a better match for him, really? I know she's seven years older than him, but surely that's still better than well over a decade younger?

In theory, she would be. But that means delaying her marriage to the duke of Burgundy so that by the time of the Readeption she's still unwed. That's not impossible, I suppose. However, before the duke of Burgundy became available, she was betrothed to the Condestavel of Portugal claimed king of Aragon. Which seems to indicate that they planned a foreign match for her basically as soon as Edward IV became king.

 

[FalconHonour]

Or Charles simply dies a year or so after they marry, and she is sent home to England as a widow... If you want both pairings, you could pull that off, no doubt. Or else you butterfly Anne Holland's marriage to Thomas Grey and she marries Edward of Westminster. Not quite as exalted, perhaps, only being Edward's niece rather than his sister or daughter, but she's certainly a rich heiress, which given the precarious state of the Lancastrian finances would most likely be quite welcome.

 

[BlueFlowwer]

Margaret of York would eat Edward of Lancaster for breakfast.

 

[Kellan Sullivan]

Or Charles simply dies a year or so after they marry, and she is sent home to England as a widow... If you want both pairings, you could pull that off, no doubt. Or else you butterfly Anne Holland's marriage to Thomas Grey and she marries Edward of Westminster. Not quite as exalted, perhaps, only being Edward's niece rather than his sister or daughter, but she's certainly a rich heiress, which given the precarious state of the Lancastrian finances would most likely be quite welcome.

That's actually not a bad option. Plus her dad is also of Lancastrian descent (and pretty high up in the succession IIRC) so even IF Edward of Lancaster is a bastard as was claimed, her blood should be blue enough to blot it out.

 

[Kellan Sullivan]

Margaret of York would eat Edward of Lancaster for breakfast.

Can you imagine dinner with the in-laws?

 

[FalconHonour]

Margaret of York would eat Edward of Lancaster for breakfast.

Probably. Although Edward is used to being around strong women, given who his mother is. And I've always imagined him - for no reason that I can fixedly state - to have a very strong character of his own. Probably because of Anne O'Brien's depiction of him in 'Virgin Widow', but that's just fiction, of course.

 

[kasumigenx]

We can have Joan of Portugal marry Charles the Bold instead as an English Proxy Princess if Maggie marries Ed of Lancaster.